Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109

[abmunteanu]

PART 2

The name Saltwood is interesting, because it literally means "wood for salt". I talked in all the pages of this thread about the connection between the I-FGC22045 haplogroup and the production and trade of salt in the Balkans, Italy and Galicia (Eastern Europe). For example, Martinussio, the son of Gervase the Norman count of Ragusa [Dubrovnik] was involved in the salt trade, just like the Drobnjak Vlachs who had the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, a branch of I-FGC22045. Is there another connection, this time in England? It turns out that yes.

In England the wood was used for the production of salt by the evaporation of seawater. Contrary to Croatia and Italy, where the sun provided the heat for the evaporation, in England there was not much sun, so wood was fueling the fires used in the evaporation.

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A walk of about a mile and a half from Hythe brings one to the village of Saltwood with its historic castle, now a private residence. The name, as the word implies, relates to the supply of wood for the preparation of salt. Dating from a charter of 732 by Ethelbert King of Kent, the village was requested to supply 20 wagon loads of wood annually for preparing salt at the pans situated on the sea shore in the neighbourhood. Solar evaporation being so unreliable in this country [England], the sea water was boiled over large wood fires and the salt deposit obtained in this rather laborious and primitive fashion. Tradition has it that on the site now occupied by the imposing pile one can see today, once stood a Roman fortress. The manor at the time of Domesday was possessed by Hugo de Montfort who did much to repair and refortify the castle. Another important person in its history is Henry de Essex, Baron of Raleigh, standard bearer to King Henry II who further improved and strengthened the fortifications. Tradition states that this Henry through an act of cowardice lost the standard [flag] in a skirmish against the Welsh in Flintshire, and though vanquished in a legal duel or combat, his life was spared by the King's clemency. Distraught with shame, he entered a monastery and took holy orders, thus forfeiting his castle to the King.

https://stmarysbay.org.uk/romney_marsh/aarm_3.html
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The salt extraction from seawater actually occured in Romney Marsh, using the wood sent from Saltwood.

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Records of 833 AD indicate that Saltwood had to provide wood for the fires used for salt extraction on Romney Marsh. A salt works is illustrated on the 1821 map, [located] on the present site of the school.

Saltwood has variously been spelt as Sealtwada, but by the first map in the map series 1565 it is spelt Saltwood. The name Saltwood derives from its past of salt production, in which large wood fires were used to evaporate the water off the salt marsh flats. In the Domesday Book (1086) it was held by Hugo de Montfort who began fortifying it. The occupants of Saltwood Castle controlled the Manor of Saltwood, Hythe also fell under its control. During its early history this control alternated between the church and the king.

Saltwood was required to provide trees for salt extraction by the evaporation process on Romney Marsh, therefore a history of tree coppicing and management created some of the present landscape. Saltwood village developed around The Green. It is illustrated on the 1769 Andrews Drury and Herbert map with isolated scattered buildings around the junction of four roads, the main road between Sandling and Hythe, Rectory Lane, and Grange Road.

https://www.folkestone-hythe.gov.uk/downloads/file/2521/saltwood-conservation-area-appraisal-22-may-2008-part-1 (PDF file)
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But what's even more interesting is the fact that the connection goes further, to Scandinavia. The Scandinavians were those who invented the process of using wood for salt extraction from seawater. This was again because of the lack of sun to do the heating. But because of the wood, the salt gained a "smoky" flavor, which some even today prefer to the usual taste. This is why "smoked salt" is considered a Scandinavian invention.

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The discovery of salt smoking comes to us from the Vikings. They used salt to preserve their food (meat, fish). The method of salt extraction involved boiling sea water, which required a significant amount of wood for the fire. Due to the length of the process, the salt took on the taste of the fumes from the hearth on which the container was placed.
https://maxdaumin.com/en/magasin/salts/smoked-salt-black-forest

The small island of Laeso between Denmark and Sweden was the location of large scale salt production until 1652 AD. The brine was evaporated in iron pans over rectangular kilns [ovens] in small boiling huts. The roof was supported by wall posts dug into the ground and 4 large central posts were positioned around the kiln. The huts measured 10m by 10m and were protected against flooding by a low bank.
http://www.vikingage.org/wiki/wiki/Salt
----------------------------

In conclusion, we have the Eppes family from Romney, Kent, England which has Montfort ancestors. The Montforts owned many lands in Kent county, including the Romney Marsh, where salt was produced by the evaporation of seawater using fires fueled by the wood sent from Saltwood, a village also owned by the Montforts. The technique of using wood in the production of salt was invented by the Scandinavians and was probably brought to England by the Vikings or the Normans. Is it a coincidence that men who had the I-FGC22045 Scandinavian haplogroup were associated with the extraction of salt from seawater in Scandinavia, England, Italy and the Balkans? Very probably not.

[abmunteanu]

This is a three part message.

PART 1

This time I will compare the trees of four matches with mainly British ancestry.

TREE COMPARISONS

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2) D. Kellogg Lewis --- S. Blocker --- F.R. --- C. Holzworth
====================================

On Ancestry, D. Kellogg Lewis and S. Blocker share 8 cM with my father, whereas F.R. shares 7 cM. They don't have ancestors or DNA from Eastern European or the Balkans.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g0Hn-jjXz7vfkW3-iAnJyYiiGrKC-N7A/view?usp=sharing (D. Kellogg Lewis match)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Mj0pI-3AfF4_4kfIDc9hQKoolcoXrvkM/view?usp=sharing (D. Kellogg Lewis ethnicity)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KFLjUHuaXtCWoUKALDNTa2qDNBezZ4Rw/view?usp=sharing (D. Kellogg Lewis tree - Kellogg on page 3)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sCSVFqwrfdvVImeZlkqA13itCHQO_DGu/view?usp=sharing (S. Blocker match)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TyQ2W46thStAHnfZOz9G6rSlLHA2_X-J/view?usp=sharing (S. Blocker ethnicity)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1t6Gf_TVpjG0Gyvu20jyyd1pyKbT2nS2L/view?usp=sharing (S. Blocker tree - Kellogg on page 2)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AbsgyRhE0vOLOv0JvYV6eWWUirUnZbwL/view?usp=sharing (F.R. match)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1itWkCR2IXJN20HrtOh2PapDXCGWA-T2V/view?usp=sharing (F.R. ethnicity)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14HxgKMUYbGxxR-lVSQpvAyyJXyLzKr_A/view?usp=sharing (F.R. tree - Kellogg on page 3)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1I0ChKewxttMCtse38u5yY9hIrgnLRdnH/view?usp=sharing (F.R. tree - Loomis on page 3)

On MyHeritage, C. Holzworth is an 10.2 cM match for my father. I cannot see his ethnicity estimate, because MyHeritage has disabled viewing matches' ethnicity estimates. But according to his tree he is 75% British and 25% German. The segment that my father has in common with C. Holzworth is on chr. 22 (genomic position: 19217422 – 23259859)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X-RLJX9lJ_Pg9q80crDDQB99MICI6WtG/view?usp=sharing (C. Holzworth match)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wl88UyA5WzXweR3NnjUWfY_T7N42zhUc/view?usp=sharing (C. Holzworth tree Kellogg 1; zoom in to see better)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ayr9nOmbN1wQaScAhN4uXgYkBpyEjNez/view?usp=sharing (C. Holzworth tree Kellogg 2; zoom in to see better)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EE7QQuRDV658Psb_lpeaki7S7LhU_jAS/view?usp=sharing  (C. Holzworth tree Loomis 1; zoom in to see better)

These 4 matches share 1 surname, Kellogg.

DKL, F.R. and C. Holzworth share another surname, Wright. The Wright ancestor of DKL was from Tettenhall, Staffordshire, England. The Wright ancestor of F.R. was from Brent Pelham, Hertfordshire, England. The Wright ancestor of C. Holzworth was from Brook Hall, South Weald, Essex. They were not from the same family.

[abmunteanu]

PART 2

Let's investigate the Kellogg surname.

1) The earliest known Kellogg ancestor of D. Kellogg Lewis (DKL) is Thomas Kellogg (1521-1594) from Debden, Essex, England.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LCQ3-W57
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LCQ3-W57

As a coincidence, or not, Debden is close (25 km) to Tilbury Juxta Clare. Debden is linked to the Normans.

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The village was recorded in the Domesday Book of 1086 as Depeduna (deep valley), and became known as Debden at the time of the Napoleonic Wars.
After the Norman conquest the manor of Debden was granted to Ralph Peverel, but reverted to the crown after Peverel's grandson, William Peverel the Younger, poisoned the Earl of Chester [Ranulf de Gernon, 4th Earl of Chester]. King John later granted the manor to Geoffrey Fitzpeter, 1st Earl of Essex and it descended in that family until becoming Crown land again. Henry VIII granted it to Lord Audley, from whom it descended to his grandson, Thomas Howard, Baron Howard de Walden and Earl of Suffolk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debden,_Uttlesford#History
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2) The earliest known Kellogg ancestor of S. Blocker is Ruth Kellogg (1792-1892) from Bethel, Windsor, Vermont, United States. She has a page and a tree on FamilySearch. From the tree we can see that she is also descending from Thomas Kellogg (1521-1594).
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LWYB-XPM
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LWYB-XPM

3) The earliest known Kellogg ancestor of C. Holzworth is Phillipe Kellogg (1560-1625).

4) The earliest known Kellogg ancestors of F.R. are Elizabeth Kellogg (1673-1750) with her parents, Joseph Kellogg and Abigail Terry.

This Joseph Kellogg is the great-grandson of Thomas Kellogg (1521-1594), the ancestor of DKL and S. Blocker and the grandson of Phillipe Kellogg, the ancestor of C. Holzworth. He was married two times, first with Joanna Foote, then with Abigail Terry.

DKL, S. Blocker and C. Holzworth are descendants of the couple Joseph Kellogg and Joanna Foote, whereas F.R. is the descendant of the couple Joseph Kellogg and Abigail Terry.

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Lieutenant Joseph Kellogg, son of Martin and Prudence (Bird) Kellogg, was baptized in Great Leighs, England, April 1, 1626, died in Hadley, Massachusetts. He was in Farmington, Connecticut, 1651, where he was an early settler and several times selectman.[...]  He married, in England, Joanna Foote; she died in Hadley, Massachusetts, September 14, 1666. He married (second) Abigail Terry, born in Windsor, Connecticut, September 21, 1646, daughter of Stephen, born in Wiltshire, England.
{fragment from his Brief History, available at the links below}

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LB65-16H
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LB65-16H
--------------------

In conclusion, Joseph Bird Kellogg (1626-1708) is the common ancestor of D. Kellogg Lewis, S. Blocker, F.R. and C. Holzworth.

There are other matches that descend from Joseph Bird Kellogg. However, in the following cases I don't know if the genealogical relationship is on their British side or on their Balkan, Eastern European or Greek side.

a) sseakules is a 17 cM match. She has mainly British ancestry, but she does have Greek ancestry and DNA.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-cuZ9mDUpqYMk2KKYRUlMbSlIRROzab/view?usp=sharing (sseakules match)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y8MUO6eDXqcl2u4D4tPZiHpYx-FqD8qE/view?usp=sharing (sseakules ethnicity)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xiUDeS3-52tr2i5xDwp1zUxWjy4e0gJV/view?usp=sharing (sseakules tree)

b) acmefunshop is a 9 cM match. She has mainly British ancestry, but she also has Eastern European ancestry and DNA.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCv0HSiiohFpd7xSJh0utCG7V4qzbjT1/view?usp=sharing  (acmefunshop match)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oBlq5PIx2r9GdasIz98zcnqUX0LiXNVH/view?usp=sharing (acmefunshop ethnicity)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nIMUHm1MEPJKkUlWOtGtqxK7Ic9JIiQf/view?usp=sharing (acmefunshop tree)

c) chladik15 is a 7 cM match. She has British ancestry, but she also has Balkan ancestry and DNA, together with Eastern European ancestry and DNA.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hZhqdaeHWjZaLA9LkREMym9xsOeimr9O/view?usp=sharing (chladik15 match)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y1jH8JeuAnKstUsXMVZNcY2T2fyLm5tu/view?usp=sharing (chladik15 ethnicity)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1b_UPiJQVKYUcugQzbGmYF56SFq_kx4wx/view?usp=sharing (chladik15 tree)

d) D.P. Miller (real name Milošev) is a 8.2 match, just like his son, D. Miller. Since he's on MyHeritage I cannot see his ethnicity estimate, but according to his tree he is 25% Serbian, 50% German and 25% British.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18tWHLU04niuYRNt8ZxPGF6_LgDS0ilze/view?usp=sharing (D.P. Miller match)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jfBsomexdeNPqoHR36or_s3bxIXuL7Xb/view?usp=sharing (D.P. Miller tree 1)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SCcr5BkPCB5N7N3YhYBGfwmDOajd5geL/view?usp=sharing (D.P. Miller tree 2)

[abmunteanu]

PART 3

Joseph Bird Kellogg (1626-1708) is the common ancestor of 4 of my father's autosomal matches with mainly British ancestry and no Balkan or Eastern European ancestry. The common ancestor of my father with these 4 matches is probably more distant in time. So, I looked at the ancestors of Joseph Bird Kellogg. He has Montfort and D'Evreux ancestors on multiple lines.

Montfort sur Risle ancestors on a first line: Kellogg-Byrd-Darcy-Hungerford-Beaumont-Grantmesnil-Estoutville
Montfort sur Risle ancestors on a second line: Kellogg-Byrd-Darcy-Tyrrell-Coggeshall-Welles-Gant
Montfort sur Risle ancestors on a third line: Kellogg-Byrd-Darcy-Tyrrell-Sergeaux-Arundel-FitzAlan-Warenne-Vere-Quincy-Beaumont-Grantmesnil

Montfort-l'Amaury ancestors on a first line: Kellogg-Byrd-Darcy-Tyrrell-Sergeaux-Arundel-FitzAlan-Aubigny-Chester
Montfort-l'Amaury ancestors on a second line: Kellogg-Byrd-Darcy-Tyrrell-Sergeaux-Arundel-FitzAlan-Warenne-Plantagenet-Foulques
Montfort-l'Amaury ancestors on a third line: Kellogg-Byrd-Darcy-Tyrrell-Sergeaux-Arundel-FitzAlan-de Clare-Lacy-Quincy

D'Evreux ancestors on a first line: Kellogg-Byrd-Darcy-Tyrrell-Sergeaux-Arundel-FitzAlan-Warenne-Plantagenet-Foulques
D'Evreux ancestors on a second line: Kellogg-Byrd-Darcy-Hungerford
D'Evreux (Devereux) ancestors on a third line: Kellogg-Byrd-Darcy-Tyrrell-Sergeaux-Arundel-FitzAlan-Warenne-Marshall-Salisbury

In my previous message I compared the trees of F. Nash and kwg156, both autosomal matches with mainly British ancestry. I discovered that their common ancestor is Edward Eppes (1710-1779) who has Montfort-l'Amaury ancestors on the Eppes-Bennett-Bacon-Bardolf-Ferrers-Chester line.

If we compare the genealogical lines of the previous and the current tree comparison we can see that they have in common the Chester surname.

The Chester ancestor of F. Nash and kwg156 is Agnes of Chester (1172-1247).
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/GJD7-CX2
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/GJD7-CX2
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Meschines-40

The Chester ancestor of D. Kellogg Lewis, S. Blocker, F.R. and C. Holzworth is Mabel of Chester (1173-1233).
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/MS5M-GB2
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/MS5M-GB2
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Meschines-56
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matilda_of_Chester,_Countess_of_Huntingdon

Agnes of Chester and Mabel of Chester were sisters. Their parents were Hugh of Cyfeiliog and Bertrade de Montfort, both of Norman origin.

Hugh of Cyfeiliog was the son of Ranulf de Gernon, 4th Earl of Chester and grandson of Ranulf le Meschin, 3rd Earl of Chester.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_of_Cyfeiliog,_5th_Earl_of_Chester
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranulf_le_Meschin,_3rd_Earl_of_Chester

Bertrade de Montfort was the daughter of Simon III de Montfort, count of Evreux and granddaughter of Amaury III de Montfort.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_III_de_Montfort
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaury_III_de_Montfort

Bertrade de Montfort (1156-1227) was a 2nd cousin once removed of Henry II King of England (1133-1189). They both descended from the couple Simon I de Montfort and Agnes D'Evreux. The fact that King Henry II had Montfort and D'Evreux ancestors could explain why Gervase of Tilbury was for some time at the royal court, in the service of the King and his son, Henry the Young King. 

In conclusion, Hugh of Cyfeiliog and Bertrade de Montfort are the common ancestors of F. Nash, kwg156, D. Kellogg Lewis, S. Blocker, F.R. and C. Holzworth. The common ancestor of these 6 matches with my father is very probably on the Montfort line. This strenghtens my theory that the man who brought the I-FGC22045 chromosome to the Balkans was Gervase of Tilbury, whose real name was Montfort. He was from the Montfort l'Amaury family, and this is why he chose the pseudonym Gervase Naymeri in the under which he appears in the documents from Ragusa (Dubrovnik).

[abmunteanu]

This is a three part message.

PART 1

I spoke about the "de la Mare" Norman family and its Italian branches Della Marra / Marra on pages 6 and 7 of this thread, where it was said that the family had lands in Southern Italy, including in Naples. My sister discovered that an autosomal match of my father claims to have ancestors from that family.

His name is M. A. Markowski and he's a 10 cM match on FTDNA and GEDmatch. He has a site in Polish dedicated to genealogy, where he has posted articles about his ancestors.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rFpxt9Z0GE6Eo6H7uGzZ0FQQ-RpbUqLW/view?usp=sharing (match)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-d3LbBbBZ2dy0KPju0H9w7IqPh6F-qCJ/view?usp=sharing (tree)
https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000005737907357 (tree on Geni)

The article about his "de la Mare" ancestor is below.

https://www.kimonibyli.pl/karol-de-lamer-prapradziadek-o-tajemniczym-pochodzeniu/ (original article in Polish)
https://tinyurl.com/markowski-lamer (article automatically translated by Google; shortened URL)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L8O6MYmELjJEsCifU3SGBAsE23c3nCZN/view?usp=sharing (archive of the article and the translation, in case the original article disappears)

The ancestor in question is Karol de Lamer, born in Zhytomyr in 1836. According to the family story, he descended from a French soldier who remained in Poland after the retreat of Napoleon's army from Russia. Actually, there was a French general named Charles Pierre de Lamer who died in the battle of Berezina. It is possible that Markowski's ancestor descended from a relative of the general.

https://tinyurl.com/charles-pierre-de-lamer (article from Russian Wikipedia - shortened URL)
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Pierre_de_Lamer

Markowski then discovered that there was a Karol de Lamer mentioned in the "Herbarz Polski" series of genealogical books. He was born in the same year and had the same father, but he had another mother and was born in Ostróg (Ostroh / Острог). It seems that he lived and worked as a notary in Novograd-Volynsky (Zviahel / Звягель).

But in another book about the Polish nobility there is another Karol de Lamer born in 1836, apparently the first cousin (son of brother) of the one from Markowski's tree. In this case, the origin of the family is given as descending from Francesco Dellamare (Franciszek Dellamare), a noble from Naples who was knighted in 1578 by Stephen Báthory. Bathory was Voivode [Ruler] of Transylvania (1571–1576), Prince of Transylvania (1576–1586), King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania (1576–1586). In 1576 Bathory was elected as King of Poland, but kept the title "Prince of Transylvania", after leaving his brother Christopher as Voivode of Transylvania. The connection with Transylvania is interesting, because my father's earliest known paternal ancestor was from Făgăraș, in Southeastern Transylvania. The Polish Dellamare family had lands in Kotówka, Volhynia (now Podlaskie Voivodeship).

[abmunteanu]

PART 2

I used the free site i2OCR to extract the text from the screenshots of Markowski's article and then I used Google to translate the text from the genealogy books referring to the Dellamare Polish family.

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{automatic translation from Polish}
DELAMAR v. DELAMER, v. DELAMARA, v. de LAMAR, v. de LAMER, v. DELLAMARE. Franciszek Dellamare, a Neapolitan nobleman, eques auratus [Knight of the Golden Spur] from the diploma of King Stephen [Bathory] from 1578 was admitted to the use of noble rights and prerogatives. He had the White Eagle added to his former coat of arms, in a red field. These rights, withdrawn by the constitution of 1601, were granted to his descendant, Piotr Dellamara, colonel of the Crown Army, by the constitution of the Sejm of 1726. This Piotr, was the son of Franciszek, and on his own behalf and that of his son Jan, in 1789 sold part of the village of Kotówka, in the Volhynian Voivodeship, to Bułajewski (from Zhytomyr). [...] Jan de Lamar, on his own behalf and that of his sons, Ludwik and Józef, sold the part of Kotówka inherited from his father in 1788 to Stempkowski (from Zhytomyr). According to the decree of the Volhynian noble deputation of 1816, Ludwik de Lamer, born in 1760 (metropolitan in Kisielin), from Magdalena née Serednieki, had sons: Józef, born in 1797, and Maciej, born in 1797. 1800 (meter in Krzemieniec from 1798 and 1800). Maciej, from Ludwika née Serednieki, left a son Karol, born 1836 in Ostróg.

Grodno 12.X1.1726
de Lamare (Dellamare) Piotr, colonel and adjutant general of the king, whose ancestor Franciszek Dellamare, coming from the kingdom of Naples, during the homage paid to Stephen Bathory by the Prussian princes Albert Frederick and George Frederick, cousins, margraves of Brandenburg, was knighted in gold. Indigenized during the times of John III [Sobieski],  [he was made] the courtier of the king's peace. He distinguished himself with knowledge of many languages: Latin, French, Italian, German as well as eastern languages: Turkish, Arabic and Persian. and as commander of the king's personal guard. He fought at Vienna and in the trenches of the Holy Trinity with the Tatars, and on behalf of Jan Jabłonowski, hetman of the Grand Duchy of Koren, he was an envoy to the Crimean khan.

DELAMAR v. DELAMER v. DELLAMARE. Coat of arms—in the red field a white five-leafed rose. Michał, canon of Krakow in 1721, cantor and prelate of Chełmno, official and parish priest of Tarnów, archdeacon of Lublin. Piotr, colonel of the Crown Army, restored to noble prerogatives by the constitution of the Sejm of 1726, was the owner of part of the Kotówka estate, in the Volhynian voivodeship. Jan, heir of part of Kotówka in 1780, had two sons, Ludwik and Józef. He married Magdalena Serednicka and left sons from her, Józef, after whom from Ludwika Serednicka son Karol. Józef, younger son of Jan, had a son Franciszek, whose Franciszka Zawadzka's sons: Henryk, Mikołaj, Marcin, Karol and Alder were identified in the Empire with the Ślepowron coat of arms and entered in the nobility books of the Volhynian province 1850—1854.
-----------------------------

The Dellamare family was mentioned also in Tarnów, a town close (80 km) to Rzeszów, where in my opinion the Chumak ancestor of O. Siryi (I-FGC22052, a branch of I-FGC22045) has lived.

Piotr de Lamar has an article on the Polish Wikipedia.

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{automatic translation from Polish}
Piotr de Lamar of the Lamar coat of arms (died after 1739) - royal adjutant general, colonel of the Crown forces, Polish diplomat of Italian origin. He was the son of Franciszek and brother of Nicholas Lamar (d. 1748), lieutenant general. Peter's ancestor - Franciszek Dellamare, a Neapolitan nobleman and knight, received the eques auratus diploma from King Stephen Báthory in 1578 and was allowed to use the rights and prerogatives of the nobility [...].

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_de_Lamar
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamar_(herb_szlachecki)
-----------------------

It is not clear if Markowski's ancestor was descending from the French soldier named de Lamer or from the Italian noble named Dellamare and this is probably why Markowski stopped his tree at Karol de Lamer.

But it is interesting to know that at least until the 20th century there was a Polish family who was probably descending from the Italian Della Marra family of Norman origin.

[abmunteanu]

PART 3

Now comes the coincidence, or not.

M. Markowski has an ancestor from Rumania, named Alexander [Alexandru] Duma (1816-1860), born in Oravița, which until 1918 was in Austria-Hungary. This ancestor had a son named Aleksander Bazyli Duma de Vajda Hunyad [Vajdahunyad], who emigrated to Poland. Vajdahunyad is the Hungarian name of the city of Hunedoara, Transylvania, which until 1918 was part of Austria-Hungary, and after 1918 part of Rumania, like Oravița. The last part of the name, "de Vajda Hunyad [de Vajdahunyad]", means "from Vajdahunyad [Hunedoara]". Markowski speaks about his Rumanian ancestor in the page below:

https://www.kimonibyli.pl/aleksander-duma-de-vajda-hunyad-sanik/

See also the screenshots from his FTDNA tree:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N9o-hnv5v1vWr-IPU5E4RW2D8fb6QPNL/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w6JJVVQbBmP_ahdv6nB9BZ6mpVVU8Dv4/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17_YYSVK1YkvTr1am7hLcokIH0-CxqPv3/view?usp=sharing

My father has another autosomal match who is a descendant of Aleksander Duma de Vajda Hunyad.

J. Brown is a 9 cM match on Ancestry. His great-great grandfather was Sandor (Alexander) Duma de Vajda Hunyad, exactly the same person as the ancestor of M. Markowski. See the screenshots below. J. Brown has the ethnicity set to private, so only those ethnicities that are shared with my father are visible, in this case the Slavic (Eastern Europe & Russia) ethnicity. J. Brown doesn't have Balkan or Greek-Albanian DNA.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BTGTTUwqwA5Zyxmoi7DD2uLp3hjkVoep/view?usp=sharing (match)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1avR1SfhB9__Qytnen8rJBRfdSXHD1Xv3/view?usp=sharing (ethnicity)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pVWOvpeq38pxg-29rsol2_QMr2CqLp-N/view?usp=sharing (tree image 1)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JtgCOQjSyTjOO7Ig92ly3-ilxESIbjC4/view?usp=sharing (tree image 2)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CXjYWzzk3jZQIHUDDWuWuR_Z5steOWgx/view?usp=sharing (PDF tree 1, see page 8 )
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MQqyfhARPHUy8otJM_TOAyGqdVZDmMiU/view?usp=sharing (PDF tree 2, see page 7)

The things look simple, my father appears to be related to both M. Markowski and J. Brown on their Rumanian (Duma) line.

But is it possible that my father is actually related with both on their Norman line? What are the odds that J. Brown has both Rumanian and Norman ancestors, like M. Markowski? Apparently not many, but against all odds J. Brown not only has Norman ancestors, he specifically has Montfort ancestors, and on two lines, not one.

On the PDF tree 1 (page 8 ) we can see that J. Brown is a descendant of Bertrade de Montfort (1070-1117), daughter of Simon de Montfort and Agnes d'Evreux.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrade_of_Montfort

On the PDF tree 2 (page 7) we can see that J. Brown is a descendant of Agnes of Chester (1172-1247), daughter of the couple Hugh of Cyfeiliog (1147–1181) and Bertrade de Montfort (not the one mentioned above). I spoke about this couple in my previous message, when I showed that they are the ancestors of 6 autosomal matches of my father who have mainly British ancestry.

So, what if my father is actually related to M. Markowski on his "de Lamer" ("Dellamare") line and with J. Brown on his Montfort line? It is plausible, because the De la Mare family intermarried with the Montfort family in England.

-----------------------
Peter de Montfort (or Piers de Montfort) (c. 1205 – 4 August 1265) of Beaudesert Castle was an English magnate, soldier, and diplomat.[...] [Peter de] Montfort married Alice Audley, daughter of Henry Audley, by whom he had two sons, Peter and Robert. His eldest son, Peter de Montfort (d. before 4 March 1287), succeeded him. On 28 June 1267 he was pardoned by Henry III for 'all trespasses at the time of the disturbance in the kingdom', and eventually recovered part of his father's lands. He married Maud de la Mare, daughter of Sir Henry de la Mare (d.1257), of Ashtead, Surrey, by whom he had a son, John, and two daughters, Elizabeth and Alice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_de_Montfort
----------------------

In conclusion, you can see many coincidences when doing genealogical research. Only DNA testing can discover if there is truth in these coincidences. Unfortunately, Ancestry.com doesn't offer any information about the shared DNA other than the number of shared centimorgans and the number of shared DNA segments. So, no shared DNA location and no shared matches (for distant genetic relatives). Also, Norman genetic genealogy is not at all studied, so we don't know which Norman families were genetically related on their paternal line. It is possible that some of these families actually had the same Y haplogroup, inherited from a distant common ancestor.

[abmunteanu]

This is a four part message.

PART 1

The purpose of the genealogical research presented in this thread is to find the man who brought the I-FGC22045 haplogroup to the Balkans and then to find his Scandinavian ancestors. Of course, this can be done only by discovering men from outside the Balkans who have Y haplogroups which are closely related to I-FGC22045. In my opinion these men can be found in the countries where it is known that the Normans have settled (France, England, Italy) and of course, in Scandinavia, which is the haplogroup's place of origin.

This is why some months ago I created a map with my father's Y-12, Y-25, Y-37 and Y-67 matches who could have Y haplogroups closely related to I-FGC22045. The majority of these matches had the basic I-M253 haplogroup, and a few had the more precise haplogroups I-L22, I-P109 or I-S14887. I added to the map those matches from Scandinavia, England, France and Italy who have specified the birthplace of their earliest known paternal ancestor. Since then I also added matches from some other European countries and from the US. Clicking on the map markers reveals the names of the matches and their current haplogroup.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1tAy-Hp70_oDeBaA0jJKE1W2flO8iS38&usp=sharing (map that can be zoomed)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l8iFoUbEVHJ70BPXpXFBE1ppvAVQmJnk/view?usp=sharing (map legend)

On the map you can see:
1) Men who have taken the autosomal Family Finder (FF) test at FTDNA and will receive an intermediate (partial) haplogroup, that is a half-precise haplogroup, much better than I-M253, I-L22 or I-P109. This haplogroup will be publicly viewable. The intermediate haplogroup of interest is I-S14887, because I-FGC22045 is one of its sub-branches.

I-M253 > I-P109 > I-S14887 > I-Y11203 > I-FGC22048 (I-FGC22046) > I-FGC22045

You can read below the article about partial (intermediate) Y haplogroups on the FTDNA's blog:
https://blog.familytreedna.com/y-dna-haplogroups-family-finder/

2) Men who have taken an autosomal test at another company, like Ancestry, 23andme or MyHeritage and transferred their results to FTDNA. They also will receive an intermediate haplogroup, but later. It is important to mention that for transfers from Ancestry and 23andMe the haplogroup will be displayed only to the user, not to his matches. Of course, the user can be contacted by his matches and asked about the Y haplogroup.

3) Men convinced by me to take the Big Y test.

4) Men with the Big Y label in my father's Y-STR matches list, but currently having a fairly basic haplogroup, like I-M253, I-L22 or I-P109. Their test was just ordered and is in progress, or on the contrary, it is stuck because FTDNA has not received a new DNA sample they requested because the existing one was not good (see parts 2 and 3 of this forum post).

The map shows quite a few men with the I-S14887 haplogroup (red marker). For the majority of them this is an intermediate haplogroup received for free, because they bought in the past the Family Finder test. Some of them could have a precise haplogroup closely related to I-FGC22045, but it remains to be seen how many of them will buy the Big Y test in order to discover their precise haplogroup.

SCANDINAVIA
The majority of the men with the I-S14887 haplogroup have the earliest known paternal ancestor from Sweden, and of special interest are those whose ancestor lived in Southern Sweden alongside the Eastern coast, close to the Öland island, where the remains of a boy with the I-FGC22048 haplogroup who lived in the Viking Age were discovered. These men are: Hilborn, Nyman, Wester, Ranfors, Kvist, Wahlstrom, possibly also Björk, Bernstål, Andersson. But there are also a few men with the I-S14887 haplogroup with the paternal ancestor from Norway or Denmark, and even from Finland or Germany.

ENGLAND
The following men with the earliest paternal ancestor from England have the I-S14887 haplogroup: Newson, Bjork (Jones), and Amphlett. There is also J.L. Rice with the I-S7660 haplogroup, the parent branch of I-S14887. It is interesting that Amphlett has the I-S14887 haplogroup as the result of a Big Y-500 test, taken before 2018, but in all this time has not upgraded his test to Big Y-700 in order to get a more precise haplogroup. I contacted Amphlett in March and told him about the fact that the upgrade is only 200 USD and has many advantages, but received no response. Strangely enough, Amphlett is active in the I-M253 group on Facebook, and posts messages about the history of the I1 haplogroup, the last message being posted three weeks ago. Why he doesn't upgrade his Big Y test to learn more about his personal history is anybody's guess...

USA
The men with the earliest known paternal ancestor from the US are: D.A. Rice, Caulkins (Sutton), Fox, W. Beers, Lawrence, Love, Olsen, Teeters. D.A Rice probably has the I-BY187070 haplogroup, a sub-branch of I-S14887, which appears as the precise haplogroup of D.E. Rice with the paternal ancestor from the USA. J.L Rice, mentioned above, could have the same haplogroup. Caulkins (Sutton) probably has the I-FTE41516 haplogroup, a sub-branch of I-S14887, which appears as the precise haplogroup of T. Caulkins with the paternal ancestor from England. Fox probably has the I-BY16792 haplogroup, a sub-branch of I-S14887, which appears as the precise haplogroup of C. Fox, K. A. Fox, K. F. Fox and R. Fox. Having the same surname doesn't automatically mean the same Y haplogroup. There is a C. Beers with the I-FGC21732 haplogroup, which is a sub-branch of I-P109, but not a sub-branch of I-S14887, so that means he is not related to W. Beers.

[abmunteanu]

PART 2

Since I've created the map, for a time I regularly checked to see if the men with the Family Finder test have received new haplogroups. Each day I would check three or four men randomly from the map. Some of them received their intermediate haplogroup, which was not I-S14887, so I deleted them from the map. But this process is very slow, and I don't think I deleted more than 10 men from the map. This is why I am not checking regularly anymore. Then I learned from the Molgen forum that FTDNA, in a message to the admins of the DNA Projects, has announced that it will begin, probably at the end of July, to offer intermediate haplogroups for the users who have transferred their autosomal results from another company. I was amazed, because there are a few hundred men in my father's Y-STR list who have not received their intermediate haplogroup, even though they have taken the FF test at FTDNA in the past. And there are probably many thousands having other haplogroups than I1 in the same situation. What is happening with these men?

So, on 28 June I decided to ask on the FTDNA User Group on Facebook what is the true situation with the intermediate (partial) haplogroups. I used my sister's FB account, because I don't have one. I received responses from persons labeled as "top contributors", that is persons knowledgeable on the matter of DNA testing at FTDNA. This is not an official response from FTDNA, because these persons are not FTDNA employees.

================
My first message:

My father (Constantin Munteanu, I-PH3895) has Y-12, Y-25 and Y-67 matches with the I-M253 haplogroup, received after taking an Y-STR test. There are also matches with I-P109 and I-L22 haplogroups, received after taking an Y-STR test and then buying an I-M253 SNP pack. Some of them have also taken a Family Finder test. Does the FF test qualify them for receiving an intermediate haplogroup better than the one (I-M253, I-L22, I-P109) they have now? I ask this because I didn't see any change in these matches' haplogroups for a long time, and it seems that they will not receive an intermediate haplogroup, although they paid more than the customers who bought only the FF test.
===============

--------------------------
Response from N. H.

Don't even bother with matches below the 37 marker level.
--------------------------

================
My second message:

My father has an Y haplogroup of Scandinavian origin, which is unusual for the Balkans. My research can be read below:
https://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,14941.0.html
In my opinion my father's ancestor was a member of the Montfort family of Norman origin. He was born in England and then went to live and work in France, Italy and Ragusa (today's Dubrovnik, Croatia).

So, any Y-STR match is important, especially from Scandinavia, England, France and Italy. Any of those could have a closely related haplogroup. For example, the grandparent branch of my father's haplogroup is I-FGC22045. The sister [sibling] branch of I-FGC22045 is I-FT216475. There are two men with this haplogroup, both from Sweden and both being only Y-12 matches. At this time, they are the closest relatives from Scandinavia.

On the contrary, my father has many Y-67 matches whose ancestors are from England and Scandinavia and who are much more distantly related than the two Swedes. Moreover, my father has Big Y matches from the Balkans who are only Y-25 or Y-12 matches and some who are not Y-STR matches at all.

From my experience, excepting the Y-111 matches, there is no direct correlation between the degree of closeness of the Y-STR match and the degree of closeness of the genealogical relationship. An Y-12 match or someone who is not an Y-STR match can be more closely related on the Y chromosome than an Y-67 match.
This is why I asked about those who have an Y-STR test (+/- SNP pack) and FF. There are some Y-STR matches who could be very closely related, but I am not sure in the absence of an intermediate haplogroup (I-S14887 in this specific case).
==================

----------------------
Response from B. D.

The haplogroup you get with any y-str test is just an estimate. No SNPs are tested. You will get a more recent haplogroup from your FF test on their limited number of SNPs that are actually tested. However, the SNP pack actually tested SNPs and might well get a more recent haplogroup than FF.
---------------------

[abmunteanu]

PART 3

===============
My third message:

B.D., I am speaking about those that have taken an Y-STR test and a FF test and have not received the intermediate haplogroup, whereas the ones who only took the FF test have received it.

My father at first took the Y-111 test and the haplogroup was I-M253. Then I bought an I1 SNP pack for him and the haplogroup became I-P109. At that time it was the same haplogroup discovered by 23andMe, so later I ordered the Big Y test which gave the I-PH3895 haplogroup.

I-M253 > I-L22 > I-P109 > I-S7660 > I-S14887 > I-FGC22048 > I-FGC22045 > FGC22061 > PH3895

Those with FF that currently receive an intermediate haplogroup do not receive the I-P109 haplogroup, but one much more precise, I-S14887, which is a sub-branch of I-P109. Some of those who bought an Y-STR test and Family Finder have received the intermediate haplogroup, but many others have not. I heard that in July the men with autosomal transfers will also receive the intermediate haplogroup, which is great and I support the decision, but what about those with Y-STR + FF tests who have not received their intermediate haplogroup? I hope they are not forgotten.
===============

-----------------------
Response from L.N.

Not all Family Finder kits have received the new haplogroup, including older kits from the first chip. The first match on your list has the kit prefix "N" which means he's a transfer from the National Geographic Genographic Project (if I found the right kit!). Also, kits from resellers (such as iGenea) haven't received theirs yet. The actual haplogroup designation will vary depending on which version of Family Finder they have. If you can find your matches in a project, check their kit number prefix using the link below.
---------------------

==============
My fourth message:

L.N., thanks for the info. I opened this discussion because I saw a message sent by FTDNA to the admins of the Group Projects. It said that the delivery of the partial (intermediate) Y haplogroups has been finished for the customers who took the Family Finder (FF) test between the end of 2015 and today. Next in line will be the haplogroups [maybe FF?] ordered through resellers, the tests from 2010 to October 2015 and those with autosomal transfers. The latter (autosomal transfers) will start in mid-July or later.
It is hard to believe that all those who have taken an FF test and an Y-STR test between October 2015 and today have received their partial haplogroups.
For example, my father has 2195 Y-12 matches, men who have taken an Y-STR test. Those with the basic I-M253 haplogroup are 503. Those with I-M253 + FF are 280. So, at this time there are 280 men who have not received their partial haplogroup. There are probably many thousands in this situation for all the basic haplogroups (E-M35, etc.). I hope they will receive their partial haplogroup until mid-July, but I am not sure that this is possible.

There are strange situations, like that of Jacob J., who has received the I-M253 haplogroup on 6 February 2024 and has also taken an FF test. Did he take the FF test in 2015, 9 years ago, and this is why he did not receive a partial haplogroup at this time? Or was he forgotten? Who knows?

And speaking of strange situations, there is R.-H. Tuz [from Russia (Republic of Adygea)] who has the I-M253 haplogroup after the Big Y test, which I don't believe it's possible. I noticed him as a match in December 2023, so his Big Y test is not in progress. And he's not the only one in this situation. Maybe all those with a basic haplogroup (I-M253, E-M35 etc.) after Big Y should also receive a new haplogroup, because they paid a lot of money and they have a much less precise haplogroup than those who paid only for FF. See the attached screenshot.
=================

-----------------------------
Response from L.N. :

There are no Big Y kits with haplogroup I-M253, so Mr. T[uz]'s Big Y is in progress still. There are also no Big Y testers in the E-M35 branch. Remember that sometimes a new kit has to be sent out, and if a tester lives overseas, it may take a month or more for FTDNA to receive the kit back. There are other reasons BY results can be delayed, but this is nothing you need to be concerned with. All eligible autosomal testers at FTDNA will get a confirmed Y-DNA haplogroup, but the rollout is still in progress.
-----------------------------

================
My fifth message:

L.N., thanks for the explanation. My father currently has 17 Y-STR matches with the I-M253 haplogroup who have the "Big Y-700" label under their name. I have access to the accounts of my mother's 1st cousin and of my sister's son, both with a haplogroup under E-M35. I saw 10 Y-STR matches having the E-M35 haplogroup + Big Y-700 label. This is confusing, because Big Y cannot be associated with a basic haplogroup like I-M253 or E-M35. You say that this is the case because either the test is in progress, or is delayed.
I prefer to use "stuck" instead of delayed. By stuck I mean something happened and the test could not be completed because of the customer, who for example did not send back the kit with a new DNA sample requested by FTDNA. This is plausible. I contacted 2 years ago one of my father's Y-67 matches who had the I-P109 haplogroup and a Big Y label and he told me that he did not return the kit with the new DNA sample and that's why he had the I-P109 haplogroup (eventually he sent the new sample and received the precise haplogroup). But this is confusing nonetheless.

I am aware of the delays in delivering the Big Y results. For my genealogical research to find my father's presumed English ancestor of Norman origin, I convinced 5 men to take the Big Y test, and they ordered it between 13-24 March. Two of them (F. Ch* and T. Ba* from the US) have received the results after approximately 2 months. But C. Ro* from the US, J. Ob* from Canada and R. Sh* from Australia have not received the results after 3 months of waiting (they ordered on 17-19 March). I don't know what happened for their tests to take so long, maybe they failed quality control and were redone.

My suggestion for FTDNA is the following:

When someone orders a Big Y test and his test is in progress or delayed/stuck, the Big Y label should be written with italics. When the test is completed and the results are delivered, the Big Y label should be written with normal letters. So when you see in your list of Y-STR matches a Big Y-700 label written with italics you understand that you should wait to see the result, or if more than 6 months have passed, the test is "stuck" for whatever cause and you should not bother anymore with checking to see the precise haplogroup. This is probably the situation with R.-H. Tuz who has the I-M253 haplogroup + Big Y-700 label from 3 December 2023 and his test is probably stuck (frozen in time / delayed indefinitely).
Glad to hear that all those with FF will receive their partial Y haplogroup eventually.
====================

[abmunteanu]

PART 4

Since I posted these messages on the FTDNA User Group, a month ago, I noticed some changes, but not the ones expected by me. In short, things have stagnated.

1 July 2024:
1738 Y-12 matches with the I-M253 haplogroup
280 of them have the Family Finder label, thus being eligible for a free intermediate (partial) haplogroup

10 July 2024:
1806 Y-12 matches with the I-M253 haplogroup
300 of them have the Family Finder label

30 July  2024:
1803 Y-12 matches with the I-M253 haplogroup
299 of them have the Family Finder label

So, in one month, there are 67 more matches with the I-M253 haplogroup (from Y-STR tests) and 19 more matches that are eligible for the intermediate haplogroup. The number of those eligible for the partial haplogroup has increased from 280 to 300 and then decreased to 299, so in a month only one of the existing Y-12 matches has received an intermediate haplogroup. If the discovery of the intermediate haplogroups continues at this pace, it will take 25 years (!) before all the existing Y-12 matches of my father will receive their intermediate haplogroup.

It is clear that, regardless of what FTDNA says publicly, the company does not prioritize the discovery of the intermediate haplogroup for those who bought the Family Finder test in the past. However, when it comes to the Family Finder Tests bought recently, all is very good. I know someone whose test was batched on 3 July and received his results (including an intermediate Y haplogroup) on 18 July. The tests were completed in only 15 days! See the screenshot below:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IZnZEDsj-CRzifZIn89IMXM63e1xYbse/view?usp=sharing

The discovery of the intermediate haplogroups for those who bought Family Finder tests in the past seems to have stopped, at least for the moment. Judging by how things are going, I really don't believe that FTDNA will start delivering in 2024 intermediate haplogroups for those with autosomal transfers. And I don't think that all the men who bought the Family Finder test in the past will receive the intermediate Y haplogroup in 2024.

[abmunteanu]

I am glad that the Molgen forum is back online. I hope the Molgen forum stays online and never goes through a long offline period again. But if this happens again, my advice for the forum admins is to post an announcement on the Telegram channel and on the Facebook group in which they tell the users what went wrong and when the forum will be back online.

However, I will probably not post new messages on this thread anymore, except if someone asks me about something I already wrote.

I enjoyed the time spent on the Molgen forum, and I appreciate the fact that I was able to post my research here after being told by the admins of the Poreklo forum that I was not welcome there anymore. But I was surprised by the sudden disappearance of the forum without warning and without explanation. After waiting a week for the forum to come back online, I posted a commentary on the Molgen Facebook group using my sister's FB account. I received a response, but I was not told when the forum will be online again. In my second message I spoke about the fact that Google took almost 1 year to index the pages of this thread. Finally, when some pages appeared as results after searching for I-FGC22045 or I-FGC22061 with Google, the Molgen forum went offline. In my second Facebook message I predicted that if the forum will be down for a significant period of time, Google will remove the pages of this thread from its results. This is what actually happened, and if someone searches now for I-FGC22045 or I-FGC22061 with Google, the pages of this thread don't appear anymore.

Why am I annoyed about the Google situation? Because the solving of the genealogical enigma of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup depends on the men with ancestors from places where the Normans have settled, who order the Big Y test. Maybe someone who has a family story of being a descendant of the Montfort family searches "Montfort haplogroup" with Google. Before Molgen went down, he could see this thread in the results of the first page and maybe will be convinced to order the Big Y test. But now, he cannot see the thread in Google's results and this hinders my research.

A week before the Molgen forum went offline, I opened a thread about the I-FGC22045 haplogroup on the Scandinavian genealogy forum Rötter. My intention was to make the Scandinavians aware of this haplogroup and maybe convince some of those with the I-S14887 haplogroup to take the Big Y test in order to see if their precise haplogroup is very closely related to I-FGC22045. In my first message I posted a link to the Molgen forum thread about I-FGC22045. And after only a few days the Molgen forum went offline and the link was not valid anymore. So, I posted a new message with a link to an archive of the Molgen thread stored on my Google Drive account. Then after waiting another week for the Molgen forum to come back online and without any information if the forum will be back or not, I decided to post my research on the Rötter forum from now on.

So, if I will continue to post messages about the I-FGC22045 haplogroup, you will find them in the Rötter thread below:

I-FGC22045, a Balkan Y haplogroup of Scandinavian origin
https://forum.rotter.se/index.php?topic=199859.0