J-L1189

[митохондрия]

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/960-%D0%B5_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%8B


Хазарский поход Святослава Игоревича
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B4_%D0%A1%D0%B2%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B0

Возможно, состоялся один большой поход, начавшийся в 965, возглавляемый Святославом. Либо имели место два похода. Первый — в 965 году, направленный против Саркела (хазарская застава на Дону), второй — основной в 968/969 годах против территории Хазарии в Прикаспии.
 В ходе военных действий, русы разбили хазарское войско во главе с каганом, захватили Саркел, который с этого времени стал русским городом Белая Вежа, подчинили ясов и касогов в Прикубанье.

[Джим]

Well, how would those campaigns bring J1 up from the Balkans?

[митохондрия]

Видимо, я пропустила публикацию про балканском происхождение этой ветки J1. Где можно ее прочитать?

[Джим]

It is just my theory.  The gold flower cases are your father-in-law's type.  https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=16Js5W1sSDUl_zXDd0CcDm6V3Q0M&usp=sharing

[Yaroslav]

Using the STR information already available, we can compare 364217 Mr. Z. with the known J-ZS3128 case 144280 Pogrebnoj.

Unfortunately STRs are more or less but always an assumption.

Only Big Y (and other NGS tests) can clearly trace one's branch on the tree and give the most reliable age estimates.

So what was happening in Russia-Belarus-Ukraine that would bring a J1 ZS3127 man north from the Balkans 1250 years ago?

Christian missionaries.

In fact we have the time interval within which ZS3127 branched off (4300<->2600 ybp) and when the most recent common ancestor of id:YF03946 UKR and id:YF74339 BLR lived (2000<->750 ybp). I believe average ages such as 3400 ybp and 1250 ybp are useless.

Frankly speaking for now I see no grounds to consider the Balkans as the ancestral home for L1189, ZS3128 or ZS3127. I think that this is more of a tradition from a long time ago when all E, G and J were automatically classified as Neolithic migrants who arrived in Europe from Anatolia via the Balkans. By the way no J1 have yet been found in the European Neolithic.

[Джим]

So where do you think L1189, ZS3128 or ZS3127 branched?

[Yaroslav]

So where do you think L1189, ZS3128 or ZS3127 branched?

No idea at all, Jim. What scientific methods can we use to find the homeland of the branches you have listed?

[Джим]

Find ancient DNA examples.  Or ancient DNA examples of the parent branch.  But none have been found, even in Anatolia, except for a Bronze Age J-Z1828.  https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/index.php?searchcolumn=Y_Haplotree_Variant&searchfor=J-Z1828&ybp=500000,0

Instead, my approach has been to look at the modern distribution, then think back 3,000-4,000 years, and ask where would the first cases have been?  https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=16Js5W1sSDUl_zXDd0CcDm6V3Q0M&usp=sharing

It would have to be someplace where there were people at that time.  Obviously there were people in the Balkans.

[Yaroslav]

Find ancient DNA examples.  Or ancient DNA examples of the parent branch.

Yes, we have one BY94+ sample from... the Christian era Nubia. Of course over time the database of ancient DNA will gradually be replenished. But I am afraid that everything is complicated by the rarity of the L1189 subclades both in the past and in the present.

But none have been found, even in Anatolia, except for a Bronze Age J-Z1828.  https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/index.php?searchcolumn=Y_Haplotree_Variant&searchfor=J-Z1828&ybp=500000,0

Yes, we don't know what branch of Z1828 he belonged to. His branch might have diverged from the branch of BY69 forefathers as long as 9200<->7200 years ago and even earlier.

Instead, my approach has been to look at the modern distribution, then think back 3,000-4,000 years, and ask where would the first cases have been?  https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=16Js5W1sSDUl_zXDd0CcDm6V3Q0M&usp=sharing

It would have to be someplace where there were people at that time.  Obviously there were people in the Balkans.

I think 3,000-4,000 years ago people lived everywhere. In my opinion the Balkans are no different from other regions in this regard.

[Джим]

Your post summarizes the state of knowledge about J-L1189.

To rule out the Balkans as the place of origin of L1189 is fair enough.  But we must then consider L1189's common ancestry with my branch about 7,100 years ago, with a separation of about 4,000 years.  Where could that common ancestor have lived?  https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1u_FoXNX8W4t_gUnrzb6Zx4pnpC4&usp=sharing

The YFull TMRCA of the two Slovak cases changes from day to day.  It is currently 600 years.  https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1828/

Even without DNA, ethnographically it is known that my branch is associated with the Vlach migration north from Wallachia (Romania) in the Middle Ages.

So the pointer for the next higher branch of the tree above L1189 is, again, the Balkans.

[Андрей Ш.]

I leaned toward Balkan version because it's so obvious; just one jump from Anatolia to Balkans. But since Victor shared his autosome findings I have some concern
Therу is no historical logic in mix of Scythian, Ostrogoth and Balkan native population.
Moreover L1189 & subbraches look like scattered skittles across Europe. Yes, Rome Empire expansion can explain presence of L1189 in UK, Portugal, Balkan, Germany, East Europe but when was the set of skittles 6-7000 years ago..? I don't know
Major migrations came to Europe from Middle East and Asia but not directly through Balkan strait but across Stepe (Caspian See, North Black See). May be that was the predecessors of R1 in Eastern & Central Europe and small non-agressive tribes were destroyed and driven out to forests of Germany, mountains of Balkans and etc.

Scythian + Early Slav (4.773)
Ostrogoth + Early Slav (6.841)
Scythian + Kievan Rus (7.345)
Viking + Early Slav (7.509)
Kievan Rus + Early Slav (7.669)
Early Slav (8.914)
Kievan Rus (9.846)
Scythian (11.45)
Viking (14.92)
Ostrogoth (16.31)

Общие сегменты со случаями из скифских захоронений:

9. Scythian Ukraine
600 BC - Genetic Distance: 11.45 - scy010   
Top 96 % match vs all users   

10. Scythian Ukraine
600 BC - Genetic Distance: 11.94 - scy009   
Top 97 % match vs all users   

29. Western-Scythian Black Sea
290 BC - Genetic Distance: 15.29 - MJ34   
Top 87 % match vs all users   

[/quote]

[Yaroslav]

Второй образец древней ДНК с гаплогруппой J1-BY94 (уровень L1189) периода античности - раннего Средневековья с территории современной Сербии.

Пишут про I тысячелетие нашей эры, более точную датировку пока не смотрел.

NE Cluster означает ближневосточное происхождение. Как говорят, определили по аутосомам.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.458211v1

Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples

Inigo Olalde et al

Код: [Выделить]

Supplementary Table 1. Information about newly reported ancient individuals (Abbreviations - NE:Near East; IA:Iron Age; CNE:Central/Northern Europe; WCE:Western Central Europe)
ID Necropolis Sex mtDNA Y-DNA Genetic Cluster Radiocarbon date

I15529 Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis M H11a2 J1,J-Z2215,J-Z2217,J-CTS1026,J-Z1828,J-Z18463,J-Z18471,J-BY94 NE cluster

[User]

Образец дДНК SFI-45 из Ливана после проверки оказался J-Z18463 (BY94-).

источник

[Джим]

Where can I see the verification?

[Джим]

SFI 45 Iron Age III belongs to J1-Z1828>Z18463* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z18463/

Negative for BY94

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20466-A-Genetic-History-of-the-Near-East-from-an-aDNA-Time-Course-Sampling-2020&p=671690&viewfull=1#post671690