BGA калькулятор профессора Макдональда

[dnaexplora]

Ответил мне с 5 попытки напомнить о себе. Сказал что забыл ответить.

[VictorV.]

Итак, публикую комментарии и калькуляцию профессора МакДоналда по мою душу...

 And that is probably the key. Russian nobles had a far greater
connection to the West .. and to Byzantium .. than the normal
Eastern European. True, most Byzantine connections were female,
but there must have been the occasional male. I myself have one
line to Russia ... and it is the famous one where the daughter of
Harold, loser in 1066, married the Grand Duke of Kiev. There are
numerous Byzantines (all female of course). Of course, if you have a very long
and good paper trail in the all-male line, you'd have to look at that.
J is not as rare as normally supposed: for example, in our equally
(to you) northern group, we have a few J men.

In any case, my computer program confirms J male haplotype.

c:\FromE\dna\autosomes\collected23andme\genome_Victor_Vysotskiy_Full_20100201141216.txt

We do two types of tests. One is like 23andme's "Advanced Global
Similarity", except that we do more "dimensions". For people with
ancestry outside Europe four of these are shown; for pure Europeans our
World graph is essentially identical to 23andme's so instead we show
our European graph, which includes (at lower right) the Adygei, a tribe
living on the eastern shores of the Black Sea. The higher dimensions do not
give additional information for pure Europeans so they are not shown.
You are shown as the large cross. Other testees may be shown as white diamonds.

Indeed you look exactly as you say you should, though quite Polish rather than
pure Moscow Russian (as are the comparison people labeled Russian). Your spot
is more western than Eastern Russian, just as 23andme has it.

We also do quantitative tests. These come in three flavors, first
without South Asia (represented by Pakistan) and the Mideast, second
with South Asia, and finally with all three, as comparison panels.

The typical random error in the data (standard deviation) is 1%, meaning
that numbers less than about 2% are not highly significant. There are also
systematic errors. In particular, there is cross-coupling of values for
Europe, the Mideast and S. Asia. For example, on the middle panel, a pure,
northwestern European measures about 9% S. Asian, and on the third panel
they typically measure 4.5% Mideastern and 8% S. Asian. Actual people from
South Asia or the Mideast always test at least 15% European.

For each test person, specific comments may be added below.

Europe       95.7%
Oceania       1.1%
America       2.8%
Africa        0.3%
E. Asia      -0.2%

Europe       89.0%
S. Asia       9.2%
Oceania       0.6%
America       2.4%
Africa       -0.2%
E. Asia      -1.4%

Europe       86.3%
Mideast       3.8%
S. Asia       8.6%
Oceania       0.6%
America       2.4%
Africa       -0.7%
E. Asia      -1.4%

These are completely normal for a Russian or Pole or mixed Russian-western
European. The rather high American is always seen in such people for
completely unknown reasons.

Doug McDonald

[I2a1a]

Результаты близки к моим.

[VictorV.]

Результаты близки к моим.

Кстати. Вадим, я МакДоналду ничего не писал про греческого совпаденца и про Византию я  его "за язык не тянул" разными намёками -это исключительно его личное предположение....

[Mich Glitch]

Итак, публикую комментарии и калькуляцию профессора МакДоналда про мою душу...

 And that is probably the key. Russian nobles had a far greater
connection to the West .. and to Byzantium .. than the normal
Eastern European. True, most Byzantine connections were female,
but there must have been the occasional male. I myself have one
line to Russia ... and it is the famous one where the daughter of
Harold, loser in 1066, married the Grand Duke of Kiev. There are
numerous Byzantines (all female of course). Of course, if you have a very long
and good paper trail in the all-male line, you'd have to look at that.

Ну, не совсем по Вашу душу.
Скорее всего про некоторые древние боярские роды.

Of course, if you have a very long
and good paper trail in the all-male line, you'd have to look at that.

Не думаю, чтобы подобные документы у Вас имелись. Кроме того данный пассаж говорит о том, что определённые подсказки профессору с Вашей стороны сделаны были. 


А теперь давайте посмеёмся вместе с фактами на руках.   
Возьмём в качестве примера Дворянскую родословную книгу Рязанской губернии по состоянию на 1 января 1893 года.

Итак, имеем в первой части (жалованных императором) 73 рода.
Во второй части (военная служба)  612 родов.
Третья часть (гражданская служба) 604 рода.
Четвёртая часть (перешедшие в российское подданство) 31 род.

Итого: 1320 новых дворянских родов.

Пятая часть (титулованное дворянство - будем всех их полагать древними родами) 47 родов.
Шестая часть (древнее дворянство) 891 род.

Итого: 938 древних дворянских родов.

Казалось бы неплохое соотношение. Древние роды составляют больше 40%.

Но.

Заглянув в родословия обнаружим, что первые упоминания для большинства родов относятся к первой четверти 17 века. 1600-е гг.!!!
Есть конечно и 16-й век. И 15-й. Кое-где идёт отсыл аж к концу 12 века. Но это такие рода, которые у всех на слуху. Которые по определению не могут затеряться.

И где же тут Византия?!

[I2a1a]

Of course, if you have a very long
and good paper trail in the all-male line, you'd have to look at that.

Не думаю, чтобы подобные документы у Вас имелись. Кроме того данный пассаж говорит о том, что определённые подсказки профессору с Вашей стороны сделаны были. 

Согласен с Митчем. Уж очень непохоже на стиль Макдональда, он обычно очень сухо делает отписку, без излишней драматизации. Выглядит его ответ примерно так: Вы находитесь там-то и там-то между популяциями Оркнейских островов и Россией (и т.д).

[VictorV.]

Of course, if you have a very long
and good paper trail in the all-male line, you'd have to look at that.

Не думаю, чтобы подобные документы у Вас имелись. Кроме того данный пассаж говорит о том, что определённые подсказки профессору с Вашей стороны сделаны были. 


А теперь давайте посмеёмся вместе с фактами на руках.   
Возьмём в качестве примера Дворянскую родословную книгу Рязанской губернии по состоянию на 1 января 1893 года.

Итак, имеем в первой части (жалованных императором) 73 рода.
Во второй части (военная служба)  612 родов.
Третья часть (гражданская служба) 604 рода.
Четвёртая часть (перешедшие в российское подданство) 31 род.

Итого: 1320 новых дворянских родов.

Пятая часть (титулованное дворянство - будем всех их полагать древними родами) 47 родов.
Шестая часть (древнее дворянство) 891 род.

Итого: 938 древних дворянских родов.

Казалось бы неплохое соотношение. Древние роды составляют больше 40%.

Но.

Заглянув в родословия обнаружим, что первые упоминания для большинства родов относятся к первой четверти 17 века. 1600-е гг.!!!
Есть конечно и 16-й век. И 15-й. Кое-где идёт отсыл аж к концу 12 века. Но это такие рода, которые у всех на слуху. Которые по определению не могут затеряться.

И где же тут Византия?!

Я не  знаю, что имел ввиду Макдоналд -  я ему   тему Византии не навязывал, я даже про сопаденца грека не упомянул, поскольку на тот момент ещё не знал, что у меня есть такой совпаденец. Документы у меня есть до 1785 года... Мои предки входили во 2-ю часть родословной книги по Курской губернии.
   Похоже профессор, в своих комментариях,  просто вдарился в исторические рассуждения по теме и не более того...

[VictorV.]

Of course, if you have a very long
and good paper trail in the all-male line, you'd have to look at that.

Не думаю, чтобы подобные документы у Вас имелись. Кроме того данный пассаж говорит о том, что определённые подсказки профессору с Вашей стороны сделаны были. 

Согласен с Митчем. Уж очень непохоже на стиль Макдональда, он обычно очень сухо делает отписку, без излишней драматизации. Выглядит его ответ примерно так: Вы находитесь там-то и там-то между популяциями Оркнейских островов и Россией (и т.д).

Подсказка профессору была всего лишь в виде профиля с 23andMe -я её просто скопировал в письмо профессору  и не более того -никаких Византий, Боже упаси...

[Yulita]

Мои данные
We do two types of tests. One is like 23andme's "Advanced Global
Similarity", except that we do more "dimensions". For people with
ancestry outside Europe four of these are shown; for pure Europeans our
World graph is essentially identical to 23andme's so instead we show
our European graph, which includes (at lower right) the Adygei, a tribe
living on the eastern shores of the Black Sea. The higher dimensions do not
give additional information for pure Europeans so they are not shown.
You are shown as the large cross. Other testees may be shown as white diamonds.

This is interesting. It is not Russia. It is somewhere between Western Europe
(Orkney/France) and the Caucasus/South Asia ... not the Mideast.


We also do quantitative tests. These come in three flavors, first
without South Asia (represented by Pakistan) and the Mideast, second
with South Asia, and finally with all three, as comparison panels.

The typical random error in the data (standard deviation) is 1%, meaning
that numbers less than about 2% are not highly significant. There are also
systematic errors. In particular, there is cross-coupling of values for
Europe, the Mideast and S. Asia. For example, on the middle panel, a pure,
northwestern European measures about 9% S. Asian, and on the third panel
they typically measure 4.5% Mideastern and 8% S. Asian. Actual people from
South Asia or the Mideast always test at least 15% European.

For each test person, specific comments may be added below.

Europe 97.5%
Oceania -1.1%
America 1.4%
Africa 1.7%
E. Asia 0.1%

But here, Russia is biggest, and the Adygei, which is near the Black Sea,
while higher than normal, is not really huge.

Europe 89.0%
S. Asia 12.2%
Oceania -1.7%
America 0.8%
Africa 1.1%
E. Asia -1.9%

Europe 81.9%
Mideast 9.9%
S. Asia 10.4%
Oceania -1.7%
America 1.0%
Africa -0.0%
E. Asia -1.8%

On these the South Asian is quite large. It's not Jewish. Maybe a Polish ...
very far SE European old USSR mix?

Doug McDonald

[I2a1a]

Вот видите, никаких Византий:).

[VictorV.]

Заглянув в родословия обнаружим, что первые упоминания для большинства родов относятся к первой четверти 17 века. 1600-е гг.!!!
Есть конечно и 16-й век. И 15-й. Кое-где идёт отсыл аж к концу 12 века. Но это такие рода, которые у всех на слуху. Которые по определению не могут затеряться.

И где же тут Византия?!

Полностью с вами согласен, вот скажите честно, почему вы задаёте это вопрос мне а не профессору?  :)Вы считаете, что это я ему подсказал, что мой род ведёт исчисление с тех пор?  Ничего подобного...Человек, как мне кажется,  просто по ходу ушёл в  рассуждения на исторические темы и привёл гипотетический сценарий  и не более того...

[warwick]

My results:

I have run your data through my processors. The plain
5 continents (includes Oceania) gives

Euro 97.4%
Oceanic 0.1%
American 1.1%
African 1.3%
East Aaian 0.5%

The expected error here is 1%, so none are really significant.
However, unlike anyone else I have seen,
you actually have your biggest Euro contribution from northern Italy.
The contributions are pretty much uniform from all over Europe,
in my program, but for all other people I've seen Italy was just
a bit lower than the Northern groups, but in you it is clearly higher.

For the test with S. Asia (Pakistan) included, but not the Mideast (plus N. Africa)
you are

Euro 90.2%
S. Asia 10.8
Oceanic -0.3
American 0.6%
African 0.8%
East Asian -1.4%

Now the S. Asian is deceptive: it in fact refers mostly to European
influence INTO there, at about 8%. Since you are higher, there
is a hint that you have Eastern influence. Now we will see
using BOTH Pakistan and the Mideast:

Euro 81.3%
Mideast 12.5%
S. Asia 8.5
Oceanic -0.4
American 0.8%
African -0.7%
East Asian -1.3%

Now most Europeans are 5% in the Mideast and 7% in Pakistan,
again showing very old mixing. But you are 12.5% in the mideast!
That's 7% greater than the average European, and of course is
indicative of, mostly, your Jewish background, and to a lesser
extent, possibly (I'm guessing) the Italian. Now that we have the
Mideast as a category, your Pakistan has dropped well within what
the usual Europeans shows. You are still showing directly the
Italian background when I look at the graphical view.

Now on to the "spot on the map" computer programs. Mine are better than
23andme's ones. I hope this is interesting. (computer is thinking)
(still thinking ... the slowness is why its better than 23andme's)

OK, its done. On the whole world view, you are clearly in Europe,
not the Mideast at all.

On the Euro close-in view, you are interesting enough that I am sending
a copy of the plot (attached).

You are white diamond #10. Dots 5 and 11 are off toward Sweden.

Violet (where all the other people, white diamonds, are) is Orkney,
i.e. British. Green at right is Russia. Blue at bottom
right is the Russian Caucasus, close to the Mideast. Yellow is Basque.
Red is France. Blue and yellow-green at center is northern Italy.
Green at left is Sardinia. Your Italian mixture pulls you left,
and your Jewish pulls you down.

[Anode]

Раз уж здесь тусуются все результаты от МакДональда - переношу сюда свои тож.



"East of Moscow" at least in part.

The strange numbers seen below have been seen before.

We do two types of tests. One is like 23andme's "Advanced Global
Similarity", except that we do more "dimensions". For people with
ancestry outside Europe four of these are shown; for pure Europeans our
World graph is essentially identical to 23andme's so instead we show
our European graph, which includes (at lower right) the Adygei, a tribe
living on the eastern shores of the Black Sea. The higher dimensions do not
give additional information for pure Europeans so they are not shown.
You are shown as the large cross. Other testees may be shown as white diamonds.

You will note that you are always on the edge of Russia. In the World view,
you are to the left. The critical view is the 1-4 one, where you are left
of Russia and not in a direct line to either America or E. Asia. This means
unless you are exceedingly strange (i.e. live in Alaska and had mostly Russian ancestors with some Indians and a some real E. Asians) you are a mix of Russian (or Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian, but more likely Russian) and
something Siberian ... Khant, Komi, Nentsi, etc. A small amount of the
latter.

We also do quantitative tests. These come in three flavors, first
without South Asia (represented by Pakistan) and the Mideast, second
with South Asia, and finally with all three, as comparison panels.

The typical random error in the data (standard deviation) is 1%, meaning
that numbers less than about 2% are not highly significant. There are also
systematic errors. In particular, there is cross-coupling of values for
Europe, the Mideast and S. Asia. For example, on the middle panel, a pure,
northwestern European measures about 9% S. Asian, and on the third panel
they typically measure 4.5% Mideastern and 8% S. Asian. Actual people from
South Asia or the Mideast always test at least 15% European.

For each test person, specific comments may be added below.

Europe        87.1%
Oceania       -0.7%
America       4.6%
Africa        0.2%
E. Asia       8.5%

Europe        81.3%
S. Asia       8.6%
Oceania       -1.1%
America       4.2%
Africa        -0.2%
E. Asia       7.0%

Europe        81.5%
Mideast       -0.3%
S. Asia       8.6%
Oceania       -1.1%
America       4.2%
Africa        -0.2%
E. Asia       7.0%

This is between Russian and Khant. You share several ( about 6) 3 megabase or 2.5 centiMorgan areas with the Khant.
The American and E. Asian arises from that part, most likely. The boilerplate about Mideast and S. Asian above does not apply to very northern people, who are always near zero on Mideast, and positive American. However, unless with an eastern real input they are not that high on E. Asian (i.e. Finns are high on American but not E. Asian.) And of course the N Y-chromosome haplogroup also means far north but NOT American all male line.

One cannot be more quantitative unless I get test results from a selection
of several Khants, Komi, various Nentsi, and other Siberians.

Finally, the quantitative test gives me the approximate fraction from
each comparison group, and you are very very high Russian with France next (common in Russians) and low in Adygei (typical of Northern Russians) and exactly zero in Basque (ditto).

[Anode]

Выложил данные по проф. МакДональду, 23andme и Decodeme - в зашаренный spreadsheet.

[warwick]

One cannot be more quantitative unless I get test results from a selection
of several Khants, Komi, various Nentsi, and other Siberians.

Finally, the quantitative test gives me the approximate fraction from
each comparison group, and you are very very high Russian with France next (common in Russians) and low in Adygei (typical of Northern Russians) and exactly zero in Basque (ditto).

Has anyone considered a Russian project to get more participants for Dr. McDonald.
How about a collaboration with him?

Sincerely