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Оффлайн Rurikidfan

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Re: Генеалогия князей Абашидзе-Чхеидзе
« Ответ #15 : 29 Ноябрь 2023, 21:16:06 »
Гаплогруппа Эриставов Ксани и Арагви по грузинам одна G2a2,  но такого быть не может, если гаплогруппа Ксанских Эриставов вопрос дискуссионный то у Арагвских учитывая что они в Грузии с 16 века и фамилии их Сидамон однозначно должна быть G2a Осбагатаровская линия , а не G2a2 , это 100% фальсификации грузин,либо была смена Эриставов по мужской линии  первый из Эриставов Арагви из рода Сидамон бесспорно должен быть из Осбагатаровцев

Interesting.  If it was originally a Scythian site, then so be it.  Then that would mean the Palavandishvili simply restored it in the late 1400's.  There is also another church nearby in Vakhtana built by the Shalbalikashvili family, they are also depicted in frescos, they were the vassals of the Palavandishvili.  However this family no longer exists, I think the male branch died out in the 1850's.  But they were first mentioned in a Palavandishvili deed from 1518.  If I recall they were ecclesiastical nobles.

If I remember correctly, according to Ioane Batonishvili the Dvoryanin Shalbelikishvili/Shalbalikishvilis were Ossetians from "Dvaleti", even though their name doesn't sound Ossetian.  Unless you guys have any idea of the etymology.

We also know that Okona (Now in South Ossetia) and it's surrounding areas belonged to the Gabelidze (Amirejibi) in 1488, but was given to the Palavandishvili as blood payment.

As for the Djizalov themselves, they are the descendants of an orphan who was adopted, he was born circa 1894.  They are descendants of his first wife, but his second wife was this singer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1l7B1ZX2Xg

Djizalov's autosomal results show that his closest relative is a dvoryanin from Kharagauli region.  But he is also related to a Machabeli. 

It is unclear for how long the Palavandishvili have been in modern Znaur district.  But from the surviving historical records they've been there since atleast the mid 1400's.  The five brothers that already had the surname Palavandishvili were in modern day Sachkhere in 1401.  So the Palavandishvili surname must have already existed or formed around the year 1350 AD.

Bear in mind that the supposed ethnogenesis of the Abashidze family is Chala, Sachkhere.  This is where they have their oldest verified church.  But they had churches built in Kharagauli and another in Baghdati a few years later.

Back to the Palavandishvili, the narrative by Ioane Batonishvili seems to imply they are Armenians and that they originally lived in modern Samtskhe-Javakheti.  We know there was a branch of muslim Bey Palavandishvili in this region but they no longer exist.  Since this muslim branch lived in the boundaries of the Ottoman empire, perhaps they are the ancestors of the Iraqi branch?

The inscriptions of Giorgi son of Abash Palavandishvili and Glakhua Palavandishvili in Jruchi monastery (in modern Sackhere) are not dated. 

If the Chkheidze-Abashidze family is of Ossetian or North Caucasian descent, then so be it.  But the simplest and easiest explanation is they are descendants of the modern Imereti family Eristavi of Argveti (which may have been the same Eristavi of Chikha and Baghvashi/Liparitd/Orbeli family). Although the origin of this family are not known but of course Toumanoff hypothesised Lipartids are Mamikonians.  The reason it is uncertain whether the Eristavi of Argveti were the same Baghvashi is it is because many families could have held the title of Eristavi of Argveti.

For example when talking about Eristavi of Racha, we know atleast 4 families held this title.  Although Wikipedia only mentions 3 of them.

Also if you look at the hereditary fiefs of the Chkheidze, Eristavi of Racha, and Abashidze, they inherited all the former fortresses and churches of the Eristavi of Argveti, except the ones in the fief of Mkheidze.  We know what these fiefs look like in the early 18th century thanks to Vakhushti Batonishvili who made maps and other sources.

I think it's more than just a coincidence that Abashidze, Chkheidze, Palavandishvili and Eristavi of Racha (which was already known to be Chkheidze) had hereditary fiefs that bordered one another

It is also interesting that the Chkheidze are said to have controlled a lot of the regions Abashidze controlled. 

I will release family trees of all the Kniaz and Dvoryanin branches shortly and their known settlements so we can get a better picture.  One thing we know is that the Dvoryanin Chkheidze also lived in Kharagauli region for example.

It would also be interesting to find out which of these surnames has the oldest existing surname continuation via DNA testing.

As for connections among other nobility of the Caucasus.

The descendants of the Irubakidze.  The "Kniaz" Cholokashvili "479795" and Makashvili "202442" are related but we only have Y-37.  It also seems the "dvoryanin" "479794" Amashukeli are also related to this family.  Without Big Y we cannot know more.

Yes, it is true Aragvi and Ksani are paternally related.  This was an unexpected result among the Georgians. 
When they DNA tested the descendants of Aragvi and Ksani, they tested verified descendants of these people according to Iuri Chikovani.  Please refrain from conspiracy theories, no one knows why this happened.  Without Big Y we cannot know more.  You have to remember all the verified living descendants of these families are closely related and the STR results may suggest hundreds of years of separation.  So how could they fake this?

You can view the family trees here.


Iuri Chikovani was honest and was not a forger. 

Iuri Chikovani is used whether they test Abkhazian nobility or Armenian nobility in Georgia.  Iuri Chikovani's work was known for being unbiased.  Thanks to him we have the family trees of the Abkhazian princely families compiled prior to the burning of the Abkhazian Archives.  Which in his book is acknowledged as a war crime committed by the Georgians.  He also lamented that he also lost contact with descendants of some of these princely families because of the war, which made it difficult for him to compile names of descendants for families like Shat-Ipa, etc.

If you'd like to sponsor the DNA test of a confirmed Eristavi of Aragvi and Ksani I can have this arranged if you're sceptical.  Or if you'd like to sponsor a DNA test for the Sidamonidze , which the Georgian DNA Group had meaning to test themselves, but couldn't arrange.

There are documented living male descendants of the princely branch today, but they are few.

You have to remember the Georgian DNA Group attempted to test verified descendants of almost every former "Kniaz" family in Georgia.  The issue is a lot of people refuse.  Or they will agree and later changed their mind.

There was also the issue of funding.  You have to also remember descendants of the confirmed former Kniaz of even the most powerful families in the feudal era like Amilakhvari and Baratashvili have not been tested themselves.  Even the "Kniaz" Tseretelis themselves have not been tested.  Of course, there are many people today that simply have these surnames and have no documented relationship with these families. 

For example Abashidze is a very common surname and most of the people that possess this surname come from Adjara.  But in my opinion the only Abashidze from Adjara that are probably related to the ones from Imereti are the descendants of the Sanjak-Beg Abashidze (they claim to be descendants of a Yusuf Pasha *I am sceptical of this claim).  There are also the ones in Guria that are numerous, but they themselves did not even appear to have the Dvoryanin title when the archives were checked, they were seeking titles.  This means they probably couldn't prove their connection to the Imereti family.

There are also Palavandishvili in Adjara, and Chkheidze is also a numerous name in Adjara and throughout Georgia (but keep in mind we had only tested the Kniaz branch from Samtredia and the Dvoryanin branch from Baghdati in Imereti), Rusishvili is also a numerous surname among the former peasantry.
There are Chkheidzes in Adjara that claim to be descendants of a Pasha themselves, but I am also sceptical of this claim.

Finally there are both peasant and dvoryanin Eristavis in Imereti and Racha and throughout Georgia without confirmed kinship to the other families and they have not been tested either.

You have to remember when people are tested, people prefer to sponsor those with a confirmed paper trail.  But if someone claims to be from a Dvoryanin branch they could easily name their ancestor and the settlement and approximate date this person was born for verification.  Many times people claim to be from the nobility but turn out to be from the former peasantry. By the way all the Georgian DNA Group has now are private sponsors that usually only sponsor research of their own surname and usually only at Y-37.

The only good news I can tell you is regarding the descendants of the post-Soslan/Tamar Bagrations, specifically the Eastern Bagration.  All their kits have been upgraded to Big Y, except one because the sample was too degraded.  This is because a private sponsor showed interest.

According to the research of Stanislaw Dumin, Iuri Chikovani and others there are really only around 25 documented male line descendants of the Bagration living today.  But you'll see there are hundreds of people that have this surname today.  They're probably all impostors.

Obviously we'll learn more about the Chkheidze-Abashidze family and post Soslan-Bagrations if more Ossetians and Northern Caucasians undertake Y-DNA analysis.

It would be interesting if they found an Ossetian that is a close paternal relative of the Bagration

If you want transparency.  It took me months to get a Eristavi of Racha to agree to DNA testing, most of them refused.  As for the Palavandishvili family we asked every single descendant of the Kniaz branch, only one of them agreed after initially refusing a year prior.

It becomes a bigger problem with families where there are is only one living male descendant or only a handful of living documented descendants.  If they refuse, what can we do?

As for the Eristavi of Guria.  Someone was tested but they were not a verified descendant.  You have to also remember since the death of Iuri Chikovani, if these people are recluse then it is hard to even locate them if they're not part of the nobility circles or if the nobility circles don't have their contact information, because only Iuri Chikovani had their contact information.

There are also narratives that were proven wrong.  The Gelovani and Dadeshkeliani did not a common ancestor for example.  There are also cases where people from the same paternal line or surname had different haplogroups.

If anything DNA testing has proved is that you cannot cling to narratives without proper DNA evidence and there is always the possibility of non-paternity events or chaos in the feudal era.

Below I've listed all the people from the former confirmed Kniaz families that lived in Georgia/Abkhazia that have either taken a Y-DNA or have not.

Arghutinski (Arghutashvili-Mkhargrdzeli)
Anchabadze (Achba)
Dadiani (2nd dynasty)
Emukhvari (Emkhaa)
Eristavi (Aragvis)
Eristavi (Imereti-Racha)
Eristavi (Ksani)
Tumanishvili (Tumanov)
Marshania (Amarshan, Marshan)
Rusishvili (Rusishvili-Qorchibashi)
Shervashidze (Achachba, Chachba)
Chkhotua (Chkotua)
Dziafsh-ipa (Zefishvili)

Dvoryanin Branches:
Akhvlediani (Dvoryanin branches tested)
Mkheidze (Dvoryanin branch tested)

NOT TESTED (Former Kniaz):
Amilakhvari (however dvoryanin Zedginidze has been tested)
Bebutashvili (Bebutovi)
Diasamidze *Undocumented unconfirmed person tested
Eristavi (Gurias) *Undocumented unconfirmed person tested
Vezirishvili * Allegedly tested but not on FTDNA
Inal-ipa (Inalishvili)
Melikishvili *Undocumented tested
Sidamon-eristavi (Sidamonidze)
Chaabalurkhua (Sotishvili, Shat-ipa) *It is unclear if the people with these surnames today are verified descendants of the Princely line
Chavchavadze *Allegedly tested, unclear if documented branch

Begtabegishvili (Begtabegovi)
Robitashvili* Prior to the 20th century
Sologashvili* Prior to the 20th century
Manvelashvili* Prior to the 20th century

« Последнее редактирование: 29 Ноябрь 2023, 22:28:04 от Rurikidfan »

Оффлайн Rurikidfan

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Re: Генеалогия князей Абашидзе-Чхеидзе
« Ответ #16 : 29 Ноябрь 2023, 23:02:03 »
All the living male descendants of Eristavis of Aragvi are descendants of Davit (1795-1875)
All the living male descendants of Eristavis of Ksani are descendants of Giorgi (1875-1910)

There are no other branches that exist.

If you were to find a sponsor to upgrade the FTDNA of both Aragvi and Ksani to Big Y and their common ancestor is born before the year 1795, then you cannot accuse them of falsifying these results.  And I already know they tested legitimate descendants.

Also the nobility councils in Georgia, if they do raise money for a Y-37, they prefer to test a previously untested surname of Dvoryanin or Kniaz origin.  But they seldom do this nowadays either.

The Sidamon branch have not been tested yet.  But they wanted to test them after these unexpected results, but people refuse to get tested.  What can we do?

The present-day Bagration themselves are probably descendants of Ossetians themselves.  They could only make the information public when the original testers had given them permission.

Non-paternity events can happen, just look at the Imereti branch of Bagration.

Chkotua and Chkheidze did not match as expected.  Palavandishvili did not match Taktakishvili or Amirejibi as described in the other narratives.

The reason Eristavi of Racha themselves was only tested at Y-37 instead of a WGS intially is because I myself wanted to see if the Dvoryanin Chkheidze were a result of an extramarital affair and if the Eristavi of Racha title stayed in the Chkheidze family.

I've already pointed out the difficult the group has had in testing people.  I am assuming other groups have just as much difficult convincing strangers to take DNA tests.  Unless we know a mutual friend of theirs, such a task is difficult.

It is easy for you to say, test this person and test that person.  But what are you doing to help out?  You are not funding this intiative, nor are you involved in the diplomatic aspect.

If enough Ossetians care about this intiative, they will fund this intiative.  Georgians themselves as I mentioned before are only funding research of their own surnames and most Georgians don't have a lot of money to begin with.  The frame work of the patriarchate is no longer funding testing.

Obviously the Chkheidze-Abashidze and Bagration projects are getting the most funding because they show the most promising/interesting results.

As I've mentioned before the Makashvili and Cholokashvili results are also somewhat interesting.  And I've listed many famous former Kniaz families that are still yet to be tested.

There is also yet another family called Ratishvili "ней княжеской фамилии Бараташвили-Орбелиани, по другой - их родоначальником был ксанский эристав Рати".

There is only one male representative of this family still living today.  And they also haven't been tested.

Оффлайн kardesАвтор темы

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Re: Генеалогия князей Абашидзе-Чхеидзе
« Ответ #17 : 31 Январь 2024, 01:47:02 »
Ещё один результат с YSEQ появился в этой ветви,новый id:YF125316 тоже Абашидзе.
И ещё один результат из Nebula Genomics появился в этой ветви G-Z40014 , новый id:YF126830 скорее всего тоже Абашидзе.

Оффлайн Rurikidfan

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Re: Генеалогия князей Абашидзе-Чхеидзе
« Ответ #18 : 16 Февраль 2024, 18:41:47 »
They admitted they made similar mistakes in the last update.  Looks like they forgot those two kits in this update.
G-Z40014 and G-FTD71069 are both 950 ybp as well.

If you guys are interested this is all the information I can share about Djidzalov.  They also gave me their family tree but I have not been given permission to share it.  I do not have access to the Terek archives so I cannot delve deeper.

"Dzhidzalov/Gorlenko Vladimir Pavlovich, born in 1894. as a teenager, he was adopted by a sergeant Pavel Dzhidzalov. Vladimir fought from 1914-1919 the First World War, then a lieutenant of Colonel Shkuro's division, and was arrested in the 30s, but he has many descendants in Georgia, Ossetia, Russia."

"I hope someday it will be possible to get information about the real parents of Vladimir Dzhidzalov  born in 1897 or 1894 , and why he was adopted in Ossetia ? After the death of their parents, two children ran away from the Dzhidzalovs' house and left by rail on the Rostov-Baku train.  The runaway children, together with another orphan  Volodya  Gorlenko, were found and returned by the police officer Dzhidzalov Pavel, who did not have his own family and he adopted the orphan Volodya as his son."

"Our last name Djidzalov is from Vladikavkaz, but our grandfathers had a repressed White Guard officer and we do not know his origin. He was an orphan. "

"There is information about Vladimir Dzhidzalov on an unspecified military website with an incorrectly spelled surname, he was also wounded for the first time in the war in 1915, then he was wounded in 1917 in Austria, then in 1920 in the Crimea. "

They believe these are the documents of their ancestor:

I would appreciate any help in finding out more.

All of the present day descendants of this Vladimir born in 1894 are of his first wife Olympiada. 

This is his son

Among their Georgian? and Armenian autosomal matches are:
Machabeli  (Knyaz)
Kiknadze (Dvor)
Bektabegova  (Knyaz)
Melik-Ovanesov (Tbilisi)
Chavchavadze  (Knyaz)
and the rest seem to be Ossetian, Eastern European and Western European.

These are the branches that have been tested and other branches that will hopefully be tested in the future.
« Последнее редактирование: 16 Февраль 2024, 19:13:34 от Rurikidfan »

Оффлайн vvw1717

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Re: Генеалогия князей Абашидзе-Чхеидзе
« Ответ #19 : 17 Февраль 2024, 14:30:28 »
Новый образец ?Абашидзе id:YF126830 образовал свою ветвь с id:YF114870 с возрастом 550л.н., при этом в • LIVE-версии дерева образцы всех ?четырёх Абашидзе никак не дифферинцируются  ???
Ну у такого древнего рода наверно должны были  выделиться свои подветви? Есть родовое древо всех Абашидзе? Как эти образцы далеки или близки друг к другу по документальной генеалогии?

Оффлайн Rurikidfan

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Re: Генеалогия князей Абашидзе-Чхеидзе
« Ответ #20 : 17 Февраль 2024, 22:29:04 »
The genealogical tables for the Knyaz Abashidze and Eristavi of Racha have not been released yet.  The complete Knyaz Abashidze genealogy should be released within a few years.

In my opinion if the branches indicated with bold arrows were tested, we would get a much more refined calculation of the TMRCA between these families. 
*The branches highlighted in blue are branches whose results are still processing

*It hasn't been verified if the Noblemen with the surname "Eristavi" have any connection with Eristavi of Racha.  It has also not been verified if the Noblemen Rusishvili have any connection with the princely branch in Kakheti.


As far as I know the first approved surviving mention of the Abashidze family is from 1488.

But these people listed below are speculated members of the Abashidze family before 1488:

1)There is a Luka son of Mukha Abashidze who was in abbot in Jerusalem in 1270.
2)There is also Abashi Chogashvili Sikanelisdze who is on campaign with Demetrius II in 1281.
*There is inscription mentioning an Anna daughter of Sikanelisdze in the Jerusalem Cross Monastery.
*There is a Vardan _____kanlisdze mentioned in the Karneti Church in Khospio, Akhalkalaki and a "Choga" inscription.  (Khospio would later become the headquarters of the muslim branch of the Palavandishvili family)

3)In the Tbeti Synodal Records of the 12th-16th centuries there is an Iakob Ababisdze who married a Mariam.  These records are from modern day Artvin in Turkey.

4)There is also a certain Amirejibi who owned Katskhi Monastery, we know later it belongs to the Abashidze family.  I've seen it speculated that this was a member of the Abashidze family that held the title of Amirejibi.

I can only speculate that most, if not all the descendants of the princely Abashidzes are descendants of Paata Abashidze of Katskhi who was born in the early 1600's.  We know he is the ancestor of the Abashidzes in Kartli and Kakheti that also held the princely title.  We also know he is the ancestor of the wealthiest Abashidzes in Imereti.   

In the 1870's the Abashidzes of Terjola were no longer allowed to call themselves princes but noblemen.  It is possible that this title was only reserved for the confirmed descendants of Paata.  I can only speculate.

The first Chkhetidze to hold the title of Eristavi of Racha was Ivane Chkhetidze who is first mentioned in the historical record in 1486. 
As for the modern day descendants I believe their oldest common ancestor is Papuna II Eristavi who reigned in 1684–1696.

The complete genealogical tables for the branches that held the title Knyaz, for these surnames:Rusishvili, Chkheidze and Palavandishvili have been released.

As Kardes mentioned above the noble surname Rusishvili in Kakheti is first mentioned in 1492.   
There are two branches, one in Telavi and the other in the town of Shilda. 
The Telavi Rusishvilis are descendants of Bejan, the Shilda Rusishvilis are descendants of Pati. 
Their genealogical distance from one another is unknown, the Shilda Rusishvilis had their last descendant in 1903 and it was a female member.
Bejan of Telavi held the title and surname Qorchibashi. 

This surname is first verified circa 1250-1300 AD. 
There is a misconception on the Russian Wiki and English Wiki that Germain Chkhetidze who was a figure that lived in the 17th century, lived during the reign of king Bagrat III (978-1014).
There is also the misconception that he belonged to the Chkotua family.
However the current modern day descendants can only trace their ancestry to Kekaoz Chkhetidze who is documented from 1570 to 1590.  Kekaoz married the daughter of Luarsab I King of Kartli. 
It is possible that Kekaoz was the son of Khofilandre Chkhetidze who is mentioned 1546-1572.  But this is speculative.
After Kekaoz there is only a tenuous and speculative genealogical table.
*The common ancestor of the living descendants of the princely Chkheidze is Bejan who flourished in 1646-1683.

The Palavandishvili have the best preserved deeds out of all the families.   
So they can trace their genealogy back to Aleksandre the father of Siaosh in 1450. 
There are also the Palavandishvili mentioned in 1401 and the ones in the inscriptions of Jruchi monastery that supposedly predate 1401. 
*The oldest common ancestor of the living members is Erekle who flourished in 1633-1654.

This is the inscription of Giorgi son of Abash Palavandishvili.  The monastery was damaged during the Racha Earthquake of '91.

There are also inscriptions of Eristavi in Jruchi, it has been speculated they are either Eristavi of Argveti, Eristavi of Racha or Chorchanelis (a family from Adigeni from modern day Samtskhe-Javakheti, that married the daughter of another noble family calledBahlaundi, these Chorchanelis have been speculated as being the ancestors of the Palavandishvili)

So, for the Knyaz branches that have the best preserved genealogies, I believe there is no documented instance where the living descendants share a common ancestor before the year 1600 (but I'm uncertain if this is true for Abashidze).

There are few genealogical tables for the noble and peasant branches of these families.  And seldom do genealogies for noble families go past the year 1750.

Of course, testing more descendants of the noble and peasant branches would be ideal to get an idea how old the extant branches of these surnames might be.

*YF125316 is a sub-branch of Abashidze named Gabuashvili. 
(There is also another sub-branch of Abashidze called Finezishvili whose results are still processing.)
*YF126830 is an Abashidze that did not hold the title of Knyaz
*YF125234, YF114870, YF125316 all held the title Knyaz

« Последнее редактирование: 17 Февраль 2024, 23:31:59 от Rurikidfan »

Оффлайн kardesАвтор темы

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Re: Генеалогия князей Абашидзе-Чхеидзе
« Ответ #21 : 22 Апрель 2024, 03:24:23 »
Ещё один результат с YSEQ появился в этой ветви,новый id:YF125316 тоже Абашидзе.
И ещё один результат из Nebula Genomics появился в этой ветви G-Z40014 , новый id:YF126830 скорее всего тоже Абашидзе.    img
Возможно здесь какая то ошибка или техническая накладка?

Новый образец ?Абашидзе id:YF126830 образовал свою ветвь с id:YF114870 с возрастом 550л.н., при этом в • LIVE-версии дерева образцы всех ?четырёх Абашидзе никак не дифферинцируются  ???
И ещё 2 новых результата Абашидзе YF128726 и id:YF129081  загружены из Небулы , и хотя возраст общей ветви немного увеличился TMRCA 600 ybp, пока без образования новых подветвей
Также появился в ветви G-FTD72936  новый образец по всей видимости опять Палавандишвили id:YF129215 GEO [GE-SK  из YSEQ и тоже пока без образования новой субветви.

Пополнение и в корневой ветви   G-Y425241 -   образец     id:YF129285[GE-RL]kat оказался близок к образцу Чхеидзе.id:YF124184
« Последнее редактирование: 14 Май 2024, 02:17:29 от kardes »


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