Scots in Russia? / Шотландцы в России

[warwick]

http://www.genealogical.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&item_number=9365

[Farroukh]

Dear Warwick, you can see the R1b1b2 haplotype of Russian man who are close to Europeans. Is it "Scottish" haplotype?

[warwick]

Interesting.
When I check in ysearch I see these matches: Rigaud, Rigaud, Green.
Rigaud is French.

But this is only for 12 markers.

At GD=1 one is a R1b1b2a1b5 haplotype from Scotland, Atkins.
This is R1b L21+, found throughout the British Isles and France.

It could be Scottish, or English, or French.
We would need more markers.

[Farroukh]

Warwick, is it possible for you to desribe the difference between European continental R1b1b2 and R1b1b2 from British Isles (specific subclades or DYS values)?

[warwick]

Warwick, is it possible for you to desribe the difference between European continental R1b1b2 and R1b1b2 from British Isles (specific subclades or DYS values)?

That is a difficult problem. There is an L21 project at ftdna: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?section=yresults

I would advise, if possible, upgrading to 37+ plus markers and testing for advanced snps, such as L21.

Of interest to you, there is a Baltic Cluster in the L21 project (see my link above)

[warwick]

There is also this resource on Scottish emigration to Russia: http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/scoruss.html

"From the Middle Ages to the twentieth century a multitude of Scots flocked to the most immense country history has known. They came from every neuk of Scotland and their field of action was Russia’s whole expanse from the Baltic to Alaska, from the Arctic to the Chinese frontiers. They knew that for sheer vastness and potential she was unsurpassed as the land of opportunity. She sheltered and fostered many a braw lad, and some of them became the most famous men of the Diaspora. One need only recall the names of Peter the Great’s principal advisor, General Patrick Gordon of Auchleucheries, Aberdeen (1635-1699); Prince Mikhail Barclay de Tolly, commander-in-chief in the Napoleonic wars, or Mikhail Lermontov, the poet whose forebears sprang from county Fife. "

"Bryan Sykes, the professor of genetics at Oxford University, believes up to 250,000 Russians may have Scottish blood.

He is now looking for people with the surname Learmonth in Scotland and Lermontov in Russia to come forward for genetic testing to prove the historic link. "
Source: http://heritage.scotsman.com/genealogy/Scot-to-bring-DNA-from.3464860.jp

Lermontov: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Lermontov
"Lermontov was born in Moscow to a respectable noble family of the Tula Governorate, and grew up in the village of Tarkhany (in the Penza Governorate), which now preserves his remains. According to one disputed and uncorroborated theory his paternal family was believed to have descended from the Scottish Learmonths, one of whom settled in Russia in the early 17th century, during the reign of Mikhail Fedorovich Romanov. The legendary Scottish poet Thomas the Rhymer (Thomas Learmonth) is claimed to be a relative of Lermontov. However this claim has been neither proved nor disproved, and thus remains a legend.[1]"

[ferrum lupus]

There is also this resource on Scottish emigration to Russia: http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/scoruss.html

"From the Middle Ages to the twentieth century a multitude of Scots flocked to the most immense country history has known. They came from every neuk of Scotland and their field of action was Russia’s whole expanse from the Baltic to Alaska, from the Arctic to the Chinese frontiers. They knew that for sheer vastness and potential she was unsurpassed as the land of opportunity. She sheltered and fostered many a braw lad, and some of them became the most famous men of the Diaspora. One need only recall the names of Peter the Great’s principal advisor, General Patrick Gordon of Auchleucheries, Aberdeen (1635-1699); Prince Mikhail Barclay de Tolly, commander-in-chief in the Napoleonic wars, or Mikhail Lermontov, the poet whose forebears sprang from county Fife. "

"Bryan Sykes, the professor of genetics at Oxford University, believes up to 250,000 Russians may have Scottish blood.

He is now looking for people with the surname Learmonth in Scotland and Lermontov in Russia to come forward for genetic testing to prove the historic link. "
Source: http://heritage.scotsman.com/genealogy/Scot-to-bring-DNA-from.3464860.jp

Lermontov: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Lermontov
"Lermontov was born in Moscow to a respectable noble family of the Tula Governorate, and grew up in the village of Tarkhany (in the Penza Governorate), which now preserves his remains. According to one disputed and uncorroborated theory his paternal family was believed to have descended from the Scottish Learmonths, one of whom settled in Russia in the early 17th century, during the reign of Mikhail Fedorovich Romanov. The legendary Scottish poet Thomas the Rhymer (Thomas Learmonth) is claimed to be a relative of Lermontov. However this claim has been neither proved nor disproved, and thus remains a legend.[1]"

I can not provide any sources here now, but in Lithuania all the time I heard rumours that poet is derived from Lithuanian army officer of Scotish descent, who became war prisoner during war with Russia.

[mouglley]

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Лермонт

Томас Лермонт принадлежал к существующему поныне шотландскому роду Лермонтов, родоначальник которого упоминается в 1057: он был награжден королем Малькольмом III за участие в разгроме Макбета и по королевскому указу получил фамилию Лермонт (от местности, что считалось почетным). В 1613 г. один из представителей этого рода, пленный поручик польской службы Георг (Джордж) Лермонт (ок. 1596—1634), поступил на службу к русскому царю Михаилу Фёдоровичу, перешел в православие и стал, под именем Юрия Андреевича, родоначальником русской дворянской фамилии Лермонтовых, к которой принадлежал Михаил Лермонтов, который считается потомком Томаса Рифмача. В XVI веке предок Джорджа Байрона, королевский адвокат Гордон Байрон, был женат на Маргарет Лермонт, что дало основание поэту числить Томаса Рифмача в своих предках

[warwick]

I should also mention that 1/8 of my ancestry is Scottish: Kirk surname.
My paternal aunt, searchable under Marilyn Graves, has a 10th cousin of Polish ancestry on 23andme.
I manage that account.