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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #60 : 02 Февраль 2024, 20:24:12 »
PART 5

Let’s speak now about the veracity of the trees provided by the matches with Gist ancestors. As I said, all the trees contain a couple named Richard Gist and Zipporah Murray. These two persons are attested in documents, so they were real. But since the interest is for Gist line, what about the ancestors of Richard Gist, are they the ones presented in the trees?

In KWG and JP Gist’s trees the following genealogical relationship is present:
François (duc de Lorraine) Guise (b. 1518, France) => Henri (duc de Guise) Guise (b. 1550 Guise, France) => William Guise (b. 1580 Elmore, England) => Christopher Gist (b. 1629, England) => Christopher Gist (b. 1655, England) => Richard Gist (b. 1684, Baltimore, Maryland, USA)

JP Gist has a 98.4 cM match on GEDmatch named T. Hammer, who also has Gist ancestors. In T. Hammer’s tree the following genealogical relationship is present:
John Guise (b. 1450, Elmore, England) =>>>> William Guise (b. 1592, Elmore) => Christopher Gist (b. 1629, Nottingham, England) =>>> Christopher Gist (b. 1679, Malmesbury, England) => Richard Gist (b. 1683, Baltimore, Maryland, USA)

Screenshot from T. Hammer’s tree:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1I33qodPcyCwpKkCrdF-XUl94krkQDPod/view?usp=sharing

There is a tree of Richard Gist on Geni:
Christopher Gist (b. 1629, Nottingham, England) > Christopher Gist (b. after 1642, Malmesbury, England) > Richard Gist (b. 1683, Baltimore, Maryland, USA)
https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000006348265291

There is a page and a tree of Richard Gist on FamilySearch (he is presented as descending from the Guise family from Elmore, England) :
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LCJK-9XW
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LCJK-9XW

And, finally, there is a page about Richard Gist on WikiTree.
Christopher Gist (b. about 1650, England) > Richard Gist (b. about 1683, Baltimore, Maryland, USA)
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Gist-82 (Richard Gist)
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Gist-83 (Christopher Gist, father of Richard)

On WikiTree it is said that there is no birth record of Richard Gist. He was a real person, but his birth was not registered in a document. About his father, Christopher Gist, it is said (in the Biography section) that he was born in England, but the place of birth is unknown and his parents are unknown. The parents of Christopher Gist (b. 1650) that are present in other trees (Christopher Gist b. 1618 and Anne Washington b. 1621) seems to have originated from a genealogical forgery named “The Horn Papers”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_Papers

So, the majority of the trees that include information about the English ancestors of Richard Gist are wrong. These ancestors are unknown, except for his father, Christopher Gist, who was born in England in an unknown place. The genealogical relationship with the Guise families from England and France is not proven.

The conclusion is that there is a lot of false genealogical data on the internet and a lot of genealogical speculation without any support (documents, testimonies, etc.). Especially when it comes to descendance from noble families, there is the tendency to “appropriate” members of these noble families as ancestors, even if the genealogical relationship cannot be proven. I name this “ancestor appropriation”, when a person considered without proof as an ancestor is added to the family tree. And there is also the tendency to copy genealogical trees from the internet without verifying them, trees that may contain false information, even though they are hosted on sites like Geni or FamilySearch, specialized in genealogy research. My advice is to never add to a tree a person that is not confirmed as an ancestor either by documents or by DNA testing.


This reminded me of the claim by A. Jakšić (I-FGC22045>I-FGC22061>I-FT36856) that Pavle Abazović, a medieval Duke from the Drobnjak tribe, was his ancestor. A year ago, one of his relatives with the Abazović surname was tested and his haplogroup was I2, not I1 as expected. A. Jakšić’s claim appeared as false, so he could have been accused of “ancestor appropriation”. However, last month a new Y-12 match with my father appeared and he has the name M. Abazović (see the screenshot below). So, the claim by A. Jakšić could actually be true and he is indeed the descendant of Pavle Abazović.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vFujPO2s3fXsjEvH08m_reJaoT5i5Vwy/view?usp=sharing

And linked to this story, my hypothesis about the I-FGC22045 haplogroup being brought to the Balkans by members of the Abaza family of Abkhazian origin was proven as false. They are indeed of Abkhazian origin, but they don’t have the I1 haplogroup, as was communicated by сɣнце in a recent message on the Poreklo forum.

---------------------
{automatic translation from Serbian}
The descendants of Abaza Mehmed Pasha from Russia are G-M201, their Abkhaz origin is confirmed.

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg194826#msg194826
-------------------

My Abkhazian hypothesis about the origin of I-FGC22045 was stated because at that time it was the only hypothesis that could explain the existence of its I-FGC22052 branch, the Abaza family being present at the same time in the Western Balkans and in the Russian Empire. But this was before A. Jurjević appeared and claimed to be a descendant of the Zorzi/Georgi family from Ragusa [Dubrovnik]. It is known that members of the Ragusan merchant families settled in trade colonies across the Balkans, but were also mentioned in Galicia (at the border with the Russian Empire) as salt producers and traders, so it makes sense to search for the ancestor with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup in the medieval families from Ragusa.

This is why I repeat that all my messages about the I-FGC22045 haplogroup posted on the forums contain genealogical speculation based on the available historical, genealogical and genetic data. I do believe that the man who brought the I-FGC22045 haplogroup to the Balkans was Gervase of Tilbury, on his real name Gervase of Montfort, who was the Norman count of Ragusa [Dubrovnik]. However, this must be confirmed by DNA testing, and until now there are no men with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup in France, England or Italy, where most of the Montfort family was living in medieval times.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #61 : 11 Февраль 2024, 19:51:06 »
This is a three part message.

PART 1

I spoke in a previous message about Stancius, son of Gervase the count of Ragusa [Dubrovnik], mentioned by Irmgard Mahnken, who researched the Dubrovnik nobility from the 14th century. The name Stancius is probably the Latin translation of the Serbo-Croatian name Stančo (pronounced as Stancho in English), as can be seen in the document from ResearchGate linked below, for example at page 28.

http://tinyurl.com/urban-elite-dubrovnik

I searched the volumes of the collection of documents named “Codex Diplomaticus Regni Croatiae, Dalmatiae et Slavoniae” for the name Stancius to see if I can found it.

In Codex Diplomaticus vol. 2 (pages 285 and 294) there are two documents from 1197 and 1198 speaking about Stancius (also written as Stanzius), the abbot of the Lokrum monastery. Lokrum is an island located very close to Dubrovnik.

---------------
Lokrum (pronounced [lɔ̌krum], Italian: Lacroma) is an island in the Adriatic Sea [located] 600 metres (1,969 feet) from the city of Dubrovnik, Croatia. [...] The first written mention of Lokrum was in 1023 when the Benedictine abbey and monastery were founded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokrum
--------------

In Codex Diplomaticus vol. 3 (page 132) there is a document from 1214 about the monastery from Lokrum, where it is said that a count [of Ragusa] named Stanco, lord of the land, gave a church diocese to that monastery. See the screenshots below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XaB-cWXR6lC0oLrHl2giKKW8XGwMYZnj/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wO-daRffcXgEDAsN2dz08DWsB1iJjEpi/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FM0BV1ZFm7dt_miZgXS2ili8vgcdvpzU/view?usp=sharing

Judging only by the name, it is possible that Stancius, Gervase’s son, was the abbot of the Lokrum monastery in 1197 and then became the count of Ragusa in 1214. This is a speculation, of course, but again, it is possible that the things were like that. In my opinion Gervase the count was actually Gervase of Tilbury who was a cleric, a lawyer specialized in church law, so it is plausible that his son became an abbot.  It is also plausible that his son would later become the count of Ragusa.

------------
Abbot is an ecclesiastical title given to the head of an independent monastery for men in various Western Christian traditions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbot
------------

The Lokrum monastery, where Stancius was abbot, was a Benedictine monastery and what is special about it is the connection with the English king Richard I Lionheart.

------------------
According to [a] legend, Richard the Lionheart was shipwrecked in 1192 after returning home from the crusades and was cast safely ashore on Lokrum. He pledged to build a church on the island but, at the plea of Dubrovnik citizens, the church was built on the nearby mainland instead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokrum#History
-----------------

A more detailed article about the legend and its veracity is below. The article is based on the book "Dubrovnik - between history and legend" written by Marko Margaritoni in 2001.

-----------------
Many foreign rulers visited Dubrovnik throughout its long history. The renowned English king, Richard the Lion-Hearted, was the first among them. It is said that he stopped over on his return from Palestine in the year 1192. All the Dubrovnik chroniclers relate how Richard the Lion-Hearted got caught up in a great storm in the Adriatic Sea, while returning home from the Third Crusades. The King was on a Venetian ship that was taking him home, but the chroniclers erred when they said that the queen was with him as well.

Equally, most chroniclers place the event in the year 1116, whereas Richard actually returned in the fall of 1192. November is a very dangerous month in the Aegean and Adriatic Seas, the month in which the king his return. During a fierce storm, the king vowed that he would build two churches to the Blessed Virgin Mary if he were saved: one on the spot where he would step on land, and the other in England, his homeland. According to chroniclers, the king's ship took safe shelter next to the island of Lokrum near Dubrovnik, protected by the Blessed Virgin Mary. Not forgetting his promise, the king decided to raise the church he had pledged in this spot.

Dubrovnik, upon learning that such a distinguished guest had arrived, sent a delegation of twelve aristocrats to greet and invite him into the city. The king accepted the invitation and went to Dubrovnik. The authorities gave him great gifts in food and other things, and convicted him to stay until he was rested and well again.

Richard went about fulfilling his vow right away, intending to spend 100,000 ducats. However, the citizens of Dubrovnik requested that he alter his vow and raise a church in Dubrovnik instead. They promised that they would build a smaller church on Lokrum at their own expense. The king agreed to this. Some chroniclers say that he sent a request to the Pope to allow him to do so prior to making any such change.
[...]
The Benedictine called upon Richard's vow particularly when the Dubrovnik archbishop began to challenge the rights of Lokrum abbey to hold pontifical masses on Candlemas. In defence of its claim, the Dubrovnik government wrote to the pope on this matter in 1590 and 1597, stating how this was based on the vow made by King Richard. The Dubrovnik archbishop continued to insist that the Lokrum abbey's privilege be removed, and he created difficulties and scandals for the church. Therefore, in February 1598, the Dubrovnik government issued the abbot with a certificate the stated he was completely in the right, on the basis of tradition, and the authenticity of historical documents and written chroniclers. The Pope then annulled the archbishop's decision and allowed the abbot of Lokrum to hold the pontifical Mass in the cathedral on Candlemas.

This officially confirmed [the] version that the cathedral was built as a great votive gift by King Richard the Lion-Hearted, four centuries after his stay in Dubrovnik.

https://www.dubrovnik-online.net/english/dubrovnik_legends3.php
----------------

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #62 : 11 Февраль 2024, 19:53:16 »
PART 2

In my opinion, there was no shipwreck, but an arranged visit by the English king and a money gift to the monastery of Lokrum and to the city of Ragusa [Dubrovnik]. Since this happened in 1192, it is possible that this was arranged by Gervase the Norman count, who according to some historians stayed as count until 1193. This supports my theory that Gervase the count was Gervase of Tilbury, who spent time at the court of Henry II, the father of Richard the Lionheart and was a good friend of Henry the Young King, the older brother of Richard.

Since Richard was born in 1157, it was almost of the same age as Gervase of Tilbury, who was probably born around the year 1150, possibly in 1155. Gervase of Tilbury knew Richard the Lionheart from England, so it was easy to arrange the visit to Ragusa. The English Normans probably wanted to have a base of operations in Ragusa for their Crusades, this is why they gave a gift of money to the city.

Also interesting is the fact that William II King of Sicily was married to Joan, Richard’s sister, and after the death of William II Joan (his widow) was imprisoned. On his way to the Crusade, Richard invaded Sicily with his troops in 1190 and obtained the release of his sister. It is known that William II of Sicily was Gervase the Tilbury’s patron from 1183 to 1189. Another sister of Richard, Matilda of England, was married to Henry the Lion and one of their children was Otto IV, future patron of Gervase of Tilbury. So, we can see that Richard I of England was linked to multiple persons who were also linked to Gervase of Tilbury.


----------------
Richard I (8 September 1157 – 6 April 1199) was King of England from 1189 until his death in 1199. He also ruled as Duke of Normandy, Aquitaine, and Gascony; Lord of Cyprus; Count of Poitiers, Anjou, Maine, and Nantes; and was overlord of Brittany at various times during the same period. He was the third of five sons of Henry II of England and Eleanor of Aquitaine and seemed unlikely to become king, but his two elder brothers predeceased their father. Richard is known as Richard Cœur de Lion (Norman French: Quor de lion) or Richard the Lionheart because of his reputation as a great military leader and warrior.
[...]
In September 1190 Richard and Philip arrived in Sicily. After the death of King William II of Sicily in 1189 his cousin Tancred had seized power, although the legal heir was William's aunt Constance, wife of Henry VI, Holy Roman Emperor. Tancred had imprisoned William's widow, Queen Joan, who was Richard's sister, and did not give her the money she had inherited in William's will. When Richard arrived he demanded that his sister be released and given her inheritance; she was freed on 28 September, but without the inheritance.
[...]
Bad weather forced Richard's ship to put in at Corfu, in the lands of Byzantine Emperor Isaac II Angelos, who objected to Richard's annexation of Cyprus, formerly Byzantine territory. Disguised as a Knight Templar, Richard sailed from Corfu with four attendants, but his ship was wrecked near Aquileia, forcing Richard and his party into a dangerous land route through central Europe. On his way to the territory of his brother-in-law Henry the Lion, Richard was captured shortly before Christmas 1192 near Vienna by Leopold of Austria, who accused Richard of arranging the murder of his cousin Conrad of Montferrat. Moreover, Richard had personally offended Leopold by casting down his standard from the walls of Acre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_I_of_England
---------------

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #63 : 11 Февраль 2024, 19:57:09 »
PART 3

And now, something that is a coincidence, or not.

The cathedral from Dubrovnik was built in the beginning by a man named Eustache, as ca be read from the site Dubrovnik Online.

------------------
Dubrovnik began to build its great cathedral at the end of the 12th century, for the contract with its builder, Eustache, was made on June 02, 1199. It cannot be excluded that the money donated by the King Richard was the greatest incentive Dubrovnik had for executing their intentions.
https://www.dubrovnik-online.net/english/dubrovnik_legends3.php
-------------------

In the article it is said that the contract with Eustache was made on 2 June 1199, so that means this contract or a document referring to it was preserved. It is possible that since the English king gave the money to build the cathedral, he or one of his counselors was also involved in selecting or approving the architect named Eustache. The name is written in French as Eustache or Eustace and is a common surname in a part of Normandy which is on the coast of France just opposite England.

So, it is possible that this architect named Eustache was Norman and very probably related to the other Norman families from England. The Latin version of the name is Eustachius and the Italian version is Eustachio, but the fact that in the document the name is Eustache supports the fact that he was Norman, because he used the French version of the name.


-------------------
{automatic translation from French}
Eustace is a common surname in [the department of] La Manche, France; it is of Greek origin: Εὐστάθιος Eustáthios (who behaves well) or Ευστάθιος Eustáthios (who wears good ears), Εὔσταχις Eustachys in ancient Greek. Originally, two different first names would be at the origin, of: Saint Eustache, martyr who died in 118; Saint Eustace, abbot of Luxeuil in the 7th century.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustace

Manche (Norman: Maunche) is a coastal French département in Normandy on the English Channel, which is known as La Manche, literally "the sleeve", in French.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manche
------------------

The name Eustache/Eustace reminded me of the English name Estes. This is the name of Roberta Estes, a very well known genetic genealogist from the US, the author of the blog DNA Explained. Her most distant ancestor was named Ewstas, pronounced like Eustas, very close to the French name Eustace (the “ce” from Eustace is pronounced in French like “s”).

-------------------
Nycholas, or Nicholas, was the first Estes we can document, even though the name then was spelled as Ewstas.  At that time, the U and W in the English language were synonymous and spelling was not yet standardized. [...] Nicholas was born about 1495, possibly in Deal, Kent, England.
[...]
It’s interesting that another very early record is of a Richard Eustace buried in the church in Dover in 1506, leaving a wife, Alice, and unborn child.  His will was witnessed by a Thomas Eustace.  Richard appeared to be a wealthy man, probably a merchant.  Not only was he buried inside the church, but he left quite a bit of money for special prayers.  We have no idea what happened to his wife, or child, if it survived, but we know that he wasn’t in our direct line because Nicholas was born about 1495, too late to be his father and too early to be his son.  Richard could have been a brother, nephew, uncle or cousin to our Nicholas – or maybe entirely unrelated.  However, Dover is just 6 miles or so from Deal. However, it does tell us that there were other Estes in the region before Nicholas, or at least contemporaneous with him.

https://dna-explained.com/2014/07/15/nycholas-ewstas-c1495-1533-english-progenitor-52-ancestors-28/
----------------

In the article from 2014 quoted above Roberta Estes speaks about the story that her Ewstas ancestor was a descendant of the Italian noble family d’Este. Later, in 2015 and 2019, after men from the Estes family were tested, the discovered Y haplogroup was at first R-L21 (R1b) and then its branch R-BY490, a Celtic haplogroup found in the British Isles (64%) and Western and Central Europe (24%), but not in Italy, so the family story was false.

https://dna-explained.com/2015/03/26/estes-big-y-dna-results/
https://dna-explained.com/2019/01/24/family-tree-dnas-new-big-y-block-tree/

That means the Estes family was either from France or from the British Isles. I think France is the better assumption, since the name Eustace is linguistically of French origin, not of Celtic origin.

Roberta Estes has a page on WikiTree, where she makes public the GEDmatch number of her kit and of her mother’s kit.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Estes-2153

And now the interesting part. Roberta Estes shares two DNA segments with my father, one of 8.2 cM on chr. 15 and one of 5.3 cM on chr. 17. The genealogical relationship is on Roberta’s paternal line, which is composed almost entirely of British ancestors (there are only 2 ancestors from Holland). She is one of these autosomal matches that have only British ancestry and no Eastern European or Balkan DNA. I already said that in this situation I think the common ancestor is very probably a Norman from England, related to Gervase of Tilbury (Gervase de Montfort), also known as Gervase the Norman count of Ragusa. It would make sense if in 1199 Gervase the former count insisted to be hired as architect of the Dubrovnik cathedral one of his Norman relatives named Eustache, who may be the ancestor of Roberta Estes.


P.S.
If someone wants to contact me by e-mail because he/she doesn’t know how to create an account on a forum in Russian, these are my addresses: abmunteanu@internet.ru and abmunteanu@gmail.com

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #64 : 19 Февраль 2024, 19:11:49 »
This is a three part message.

PART 1

My father has many Y-67, Y-25 and Y-12 matches named Moseley or Mosley. For example there are six Y-67 matches named Moseley and three named Mosley. The Moseley men who have taken the Big Y test have either the I-FGC21758 haplogroup or its branch I-FT359214. This is normal, because they are all descendants of a William Moseley of British origin who emigrated to the US. Recently a man named Begnell also appeared as an Y-67 match and he is the closest relative of the Moseley men from the US, having the I-FGC21755 haplogroup, situated just above I-FGC21758. Begnell is from Australia and his grandfather was also born there. So, it's not a surprise that my father is a Y-STR match with the Moseley men who also have a haplogroup which is a branch of I-P109. See the screnshots below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1t_ibNINML7FjsWHg8Q9vdn3omEDLQSj9/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nQKmlz4_Fbmpr2nqTS9WDAcoOSRcKs2Q/view?usp=sharing
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/M3FN-VLC/william-moseley-jr-1599-1665

But on 23andMe my father has a distant autosomal match (6 cM on chr. 2 and 5 cM on chr. 4) from the US named K. Moseley, who very probably has the exact haplogroup as the Moseley matches from FTDNA. His Y haplogroup appears as I-P109, just like my father’s, because 23andMe only offers an intermediate Y haplogroup, not the precise haplogroup offered by Big Y at FTDNA. See the screnshots below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HWDqF523p8N0qd9QMv1cheolmsNs4rBT/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10jPSMRdI3u54UTFQVtdxaBZXgaktk9fp/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13ObVybO5alokbyg9btHtRC2-w7G2Sygm/view?usp=sharing

This is an autosmal match, so it is not known if the two shared segments were inherited from the Moseley line or another line. But, for the sake of the argument, let’s presume that at least one of the shared segments was transmitted on the Moseley line. This doesn’t influence the conclusion.

I repeat that in my opinion Gervase the Norman count of Ragusa was actually a member of the Montfort family and he is the ancestor of those with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. The DNA shared by my father and by K. Moseley means that they have a common ancestor, and this ancestor was possibly a common ancestor of the Montfort and Moseley families. Again, I reiterate, the shared segments may not be related to the Montfort or Moseley lines, but let’s presume that at least one segment could be from a common ancestor of these lines.

So, were the Montfort and Moseley families genetically related? Possibly yes.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #65 : 19 Февраль 2024, 19:12:56 »
PART 2

I searched “Montfort Moseley” on the internet and found a site that compared the genealogy of Joseph Moseley (b. 1670 Windsor, Connecticut, USA) and Isaac Tichenor (b. 1749 Newark, Essex, New Jersey, USA).

https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-chart.php?name=36436+joseph+moseley&kin=176340+isaac+tichenor&via=19302+geoffrey+fitzpiers
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QYlOdNOCUHh2n0ibdSrnJP-adf_0Du4g/view?usp=sharing (version of the above page in PDF format)

Both Joseph Moseley and Isaac Tichenor are descending from the couple Geoffrey Fitz Peter (Fitz Piers) and Aveline de Clare.

-----------------
Geoffrey Fitz Peter, Earl of Essex (c. 1162–1213) was a prominent member of the government of England during the reigns of Richard I and John. The patronymic is sometimes rendered Fitz Piers, for he was the son of Piers de Lutegareshale (born 1134, Cherhill, Wiltshire, died 14 January 1179, Pleshy, Essex), a forester of Ludgershall and Maud de Mandeville (born 1138, Rycott, Oxford, England).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Fitz_Peter,_1st_Earl_of_Essex

Aveline de Clare, Countess of Essex (c. 1178 – 1225) was an English noble. She was a daughter of Roger de Clare, 2nd Earl of Hertford, and his wife, Matilda de St. Hilaire. Aveline married twice. Her first husband, William de Munchensy, died in 1204. She was remarried by 29 May 1205, to Geoffrey fitz Peter, Earl of Essex, as his second wife.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aveline_Fitz_Peter,_Countess_of_Essex
--------------

However, it turns out that Joseph Moseley could actually be a Maudsley, a different name than Moseley, that was transformed in Moseley in the US.

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LYTV-FKQ
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LYTV-FKQ
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Moseley-88

But I searched for Maudsley in my father’s match list from Ancestry and there is a match named R. Rathbone (7 cM) who is a desendant of the Joseph Moseley (Maudlsey) mentioned above. She does have a grandfather whose parents were born in Brașov, Transylvania (then in Austria-Hungary, now in Rumania). This grandfather was named Menovich, whereas his original Rumanian name was Iminovici (pronounced like Ymeenovich). So, the surnames change when moving from a country to another. I don’t know if the genealogical relationship with R. Rathbone is on her Menovich or her Moseley/Maudsley line, because Ancestry doesn’t offer details about shared segments except for their size and number. See screenshots below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vhQB38wj-bvO9hcuDkNm5X3t3oamlF2I/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IP0VXMkMnzGkbIMmF8qnkDZmJLl4XO60/view?usp=sharing (PDF tree with Moseley/Maudlsey on page 2-3)

Isaac Tichenor has Montfort ancestors from the Montfort-sur-Risle family. This family descends on the paternal line from Gilbert de Gant, married with Alice de Montfort, their son Hugh taking the name Montfort in order to inherit his mother’s land properties.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Tichenor-70
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LHNG-7QB
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LHNG-7QB
(the line that must be followed in the tree above is Tichenor-Bruen-Booth-Montfort)

I searched for Tichenor in my father’s match list from Ancestry and there is a match named B. Carson (7 cM) who is a descendant of Daniel Tichenor (b. 1742), the brother of Isaac Tichenor (b. 1749). He has almost exclusively British ancestors and doesn’t have Eastern European or Balkan DNA. See the screenshots below.

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/KN7H-3F8
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dJ12zdJ1ntYGTrndUakuMUQB2o6sM-sY/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-LZGrwKvpuZbg2WlqgmW1hC839N1-5Uh/view?usp=sharing (ethnicity)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yJAowEtvilggrE3WyGt6VbIsFDXWTE0M/view?usp=sharing (PDF tree)

The conclusion is that my father has autosomal matches who are descendants of the Montfort family and do not have Eastern European or Balkan ancestry. This supports the theory that I-FGC22045 was the haplogroup of the Montfort family.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #66 : 19 Февраль 2024, 19:13:47 »
PART 3

We know that Gervase of Tilbury was connected to England, France and Italy. I created a map with my father’s Y-STR matches from England, France and Italy who could have a haplogroup closely related to I-FGC22045. These matches now have mostly the generic I-M253 haplogroup, so their precise haplogroup determined by a Big Y or WGS test could actually be any haplogroup under the I-M253 branch. But it is possible that some of these matches could have a haplogroup closely related to I-FGC22945.

The map is based on my father’s list of Y-67, Y-37, Y-25 and Y-12 matches from FTDNA who have specified that their paternal country of origin is England, Wales, France or Italy. I included those matches that have the generic I-M253 haplogroup or one of its main branches (like I-L22 or I-P109) that are directly connected to the I-FGC22045 branch. Another condition was the presence of a tree that contained the name and birthplace of the earliest known paternal ancestor, or the name and birthplace were mentioned in the absence of a tree. I have excluded from the list all the matches that have a precise haplogroup determined by Big Y test or SNP packs, because at this time there are no closely related Y haplogroups outside those from Sweden. I have also excluded those that did specify the country of origin, but not the name and birthplace of their paternal ancestor.

Clicking on a marker from the map shows a panel with the name of the match at the top, then the Y haplogroup and in the details field the name of the place where the paternal ancestor of the match was born. The map can be zoomed in and out.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1tAy-Hp70_oDeBaA0jJKE1W2flO8iS38&usp=sharing

The most interesting matches are:

1) The matches located close to Tilbury Juxta Clare, where in my opinion was born Gervase of Tilbury. Among them is D.J. Byford (Y-12 match, GD=1), with the paternal ancestor named Johannis Byford, b. 1575 Glemsford, Suffolk. This village is situated only 12 km from Tilbury Juxta Clare.

2)The group of matches located around Salisbury in Wiltshire county, where a part of Gervase’s family lived.

3) The three Italian matches, from Naples, Pratola Serra and Grottaminarda. Naples and Pratola Serra are 30 km from Nola, where Gervase had a villa.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #67 : 20 Февраль 2024, 20:16:31 »
Много буков, не осилил…
Можно коротко - где источник P109 на Балканах?
То о Нормандии речь, то о русах…

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #68 : 20 Февраль 2024, 22:51:44 »
First of all, on this thread I discuss about the I-FGC22045 haplogroup, the most widespread branch of I-P109 in the Balkans.

There is at least one other I-P109 branch in the Balkans, namely I-FTA86559. For this branch there is a family story about it being brought by a French soldier, who was part of the troops which crossed the Balkans going to a Crusade. The story predates DNA testing, so the family knew about the foreign origin of their ancestor, which was confirmed by the Y-DNA testing.

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-FTA86559/

When it comes to I-FGC22045, it was a complete surprise, because the main subbranch, I-FGC22061, is associated with descendants of the Drobnjak tribe, whose founders were Vlachs, a population linguistically related to the Rumanians, that lived all across the Balkans south of the Danube.

This is the enigma, how a Germanic haplogroup became the genetic defining factor of a Vlach tribe. There are multiple hypotheses, because of the almost continuous Germanic presence in the Balkans especially after the fall of the Roman empire.

The theory that I support is that the I-FGC22045 haplogroup was brought to the Balkans by a Norman, or very possibly by multiple members of a Norman family who lived in the Balkans at the same time. In my opinion that Norman was Gervase, the count [ruler] of Ragusa (today's Dubrovnik in Croatia) between 1186-1190. It is known from the documents preserved in the Dubrovnik archives that Gervase had at least two sons who lived in Ragusa. One of them became the founder of the Martinussio family who survived under this name for a few hundreds of years, so for this time there were men in the Balkans who had the Y haplogroup of Gervase the Norman count. It is also known from the documents that Gervase also had brothers who lived alongside him in Ragusa.

If it is assumed that Gervase the count and his brothers and sons were the men who had the I-FGC22045 haplogroup in the Balkans at that time, the second enigma is their actual identity. What was their family name? According to my research, their name was Montfort, a well known Norman family from France and England. So, the conclusion is that the I-FGC22045 haplogroup is the haplogroup the Montfort family.

Of course, i repeat that all this is pure speculation until it is confirmed by DNA testing. The I-FGC22045 haplogroup has a big advantage over other Y haplogroups with an enigmatic origin, because there was a man living around the year 1450 who had this haplogroup and whose remains were unearthed and Y-DNA tested for 23 markers. These remains are kept in a museum in Bosnia-Herzegovina, so they can be tested again, if there is an educational institution (maybe with a Norman history department) that is interested in doing it. The autosomal testing of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak's remains, a Vlach prince [князь] from Gacko in Bosnia-Herzegovina, would reveal many genealogical details about the ancestor from which he inherited the Y chromosome, including the ethnicity and possibly the surname (if he is a strong match with the contemporary descendants of a medieval family).

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #69 : 21 Февраль 2024, 05:00:07 »
I see…
Any theories about another line? -
https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-FGC22061/

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #70 : 21 Февраль 2024, 23:30:33 »
I-FGC22061 is the biggest branch of I-FGC22045. I call it the South Slavic branch, because the men with this haplogroup are mostly South Slavs. At this moment the biggest number of men with the I-FGC22061 haplogroup identify as Serbs, living mainly in Serbia, but also in Montenegro and Bosnia-Herzegovina. There are also Croats, Montenegrins and Bosnians with this haplogroup, in a lesser number.

The exact pecentage for each ethnicity is not known, because in Serbia there is a genealogical society that makes it easier for Serbs from all the former Yugoslav countries to buy a cheap Y-DNA test that is analyzed at a genetics lab from the University of Belgrade. It is also not known how many men with this haplogroup are in the Balkans outside the countries of former Yugoslavia. At this moment only my father is in this category, but it must be said that he shares the haplogroup (I-FGC22061>I-PH3895) with an anonymous man from Serbia. And the only Y-111 match (9 steps) of my father is M. Djurdjić (I-FGC22061>I-FT242614) from Komarnica, Montenegro, close to Šavnik.

The I-FGC22061 haplogroup is associated with the Drobnjak tribe, a medieval Vlach tribe, whose members today identify as Serbs, but know that the founders of the tribe were Vlachs. The territory where the members of the historical Drobnjak tribe lived is actually an area between the towns of Nikšić and Pljevlja in central-northern Montenegro, with the center in Šavnik. These towns were on the old caravan road used by the Vlachs to transport goods from Dubrovnik (a port on the Adriatic Sea coast) to the Serbian town of Prijepolje. One of the transported goods was salt, produced in the salt pans of Dubrovnik and other coastal towns from sea water. See the screenshot below with a map of these towns.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1041NIjn3o-A8sRwFQaVr-FYtrsJmyKV_/view?usp=sharing

The first Drobnjak mentioned in the documents is Batigna Drobognago in 1285 in Ragusa (Dubrovnik). The Vlach prince Nikola Rašković Drobnjak lived around 1450 in Gacko (Bosnia-Herzegovina) and is at this time the only confirmed medieval man with a haplogroup which is a branch of I-FGC22045. The haplogroup seems to be associated with the Novljani brotherhood of the Drobnjak tribe. This name is derived from the name of a place (town or village) that contained the Serbo-Croatian word root “Nov”, that is “New” in English. On the Adriatic Sea coast there are multiple places having such a name, for example Novi Vinodolski and Novalja in Croatia and Herceg Novi in Montenegro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Vinodolski
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novalja
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herceg_Novi

My father has two distant autosomal matches ( 8 cM) with ancestors from Novalja, a town on the Croatian island of Pag which is located just opposite the Lika-Senj county where my father has many autosomal matches. These two matches are 1st cousins and share two great-grandparents named Grgo Dabo and Marija Peranić from Novalja (as a coincidence, the current mayor of Novalja is named Ivan Dabo). See the screenshots below, where the place of birth of their great-grandparents is written incorrectly but is recognizable as Novalja from Pag, Croatia.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13IPRHlqIPJWMC8n0Mz_Vi-yrd-8HMMZR/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ckMEQK3YQ8y-mrCX64dZDq1rt9Efm1Fy/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1scOZHsqHCfCsWSspH7TtlTqrDaXUvITJ/view?usp=sharing
https://www.novalja.hr/2/gradonacelnik_novalje.html

Novalja is a good candidate for the place of origin of the Novljani brotherhood, because its inhabitants are called Novljani and the island of Pag has a long history of producing salt from sea water.

https://www.jutarnji.hr/naslovnica/novljani-protiv-partyja-na-zrcu-od-0-do-24-sata-3769233

-----------
Solana Pag d.o.o. is the largest producer of sea salt in Croatia. Its production is based on a thousand-year tradition of salt production on the island of Pag. The first written records date to the 9th century.

https://solana-pag.hr/id-iskaznica-solane-pag/kvaliteta/?lang=en
----------

The Vlachs being the main carriers of salt in the Balkans it was logical that they had a settlement in Pag. They were also shepherds and needed salt for their cheese, also transported across the Balkans.

---------
In the 14th century, Vlach shepherds are attested near the cities of Split, Trogir, Šibenik and Zadar, as well as in the islands of Rab, Pag and Krk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanians#Late_Middle_Ages_and_further
----------


My theory is that the men with the I-FGC22061 haplogroup lived in the Middle Ages on the Adriatic Sea coast in what is today Croatia and were part of the Novljani brotherhood of the Drobnjak tribe. They were Vlachs and transported goods with the caravans from the sea coast to places that are today in Montenegro, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia. Some of the Vlachs carrying the haplogroup settled in those places, which explains the spread of the haplogroup in all the countries of former Yugoslavia. At some point in time the tribe decided to move from the sea coast and settle in what is today called the historical Drobnjak region from Montenegro.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #71 : 03 Март 2024, 19:20:54 »
This is a three part message.

PART 1

Lets get back to discussing about Gervase of Tilbury, the men who probably brought the I-FGC22045 haplogroup to the Balkans. His name was written by himself as Geruasio Tilleberiensi or Geruasius Tillberiensis in the preface of his book, Otia Imperialia, written in Latin. I think that the name has a nuance, a hidden clue, that was lost in the English translation.

Before Gervase, there was another Englishman with a similar name, a monk named John of Tilbury, who published around 1174 a book named Ars Notaria, a manual of shorthand writing. His name was written in Latin as Johannes de Tilleberia. So, the two names are identical in English (“of Tilbury”), but are different in Latin ("Tillberiensis" vs. "de Tilleberia"). It is very possible that when he was living in England Gervase of Tilbury heard about John of Tilbury and knew his Latin name. If they were from the same family in Tilbury, it seems logical that Gervase would have chosen to write his name in Latin as "Geruasius de Tilleberia". But since Gervase chose another version of the name (”Tilleberiensis”), my opinion is that they were not related.

Both “Tilleberiensis” and “de Tilleberia” refer to a person who is from Tilbury. But Tilleberiensis literally means “Tilburyan”, whereas de Tilleberia literally means “from Tilbury”. So in a literal translation we have “Gervase [the] Tilburyan” versus “John from Tilbury”. The Latin termination -ensis is similar to the English termination -ese used in words like Milanese, Maltese, etc.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ensis
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ese

But why would Gervase chose the name “Tilleberiensis” instead of the more common variant “de Tilleberia”? In my opinion it was because his family had no land property in Tilbury. The “de” particle used in names of noble families written in French or Latin usually means that the respective family was the owner of the land in the place of origin (village, town, etc). For example the name “de Montfort” meant that the family was the owner of the land in the place named Montfort-sur-Risle, Montfort-l’Amaury or Montfort-sur-Meu. The name “D’Evreux” (a constriction of “De Evreux”) meant that the family was the owner of the land in the place named Evreux. So, by choosing “Tilleberiensis” instead of “de Tilleberia”, Gervase wanted to emphasize that his family was not the owner of the land in Tilbury.

Of course, the confirmation of the fact that the family of Gervase was not named Tilbury can only be given by DNA testing of the men that have this name today. Unfortunately, there is no DNA Project of the Tilbury surname. I found on the internet only one Tilbury man who has taken an Y-DNA test (Y-67), and he has the R1b haplogroup.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Tilbury-101

There is a site dedicated to the Tilbury genealogy, but it is no longer updated, and when it was last updated (2007), the Y-DNA testing was not available.
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~cmtilbury/genealogy/ttm/ttm_frontpage.html

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #72 : 03 Март 2024, 19:26:44 »
PART 2

I have found another two clues that may indicate that the real surname of Gervase de Tilbury was Montfort.

There are two writings of Gervase which survive to the present day. One is his book, Otia Imperialia, and the other is a religious commentary. This commentary was kept in the Hereford Cathedral, so this cathedral was somehow linked to Gervase, because otherwise he would not have given his manuscript to be kept there. See the page scan from his book linked below:


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e_URJxNCClIwz1BBaQYvX9hDwC0sgmBg/view?usp=sharing

A simple search on the internet for "Montfort Hereford" finds the link, namely William de Montfort.

--------------
 William de Montfort (also Mountfort) was an English medieval Canon law jurist, singer, dean, and university chancellor. He was apparently the son of Peter de Montfort. William de Montfort was a Professor or Doctor of Canon law. He was Chantor at Hereford Cathedral and for a time was prebendary of Inkberrow. During 1282–3, he was Chancellor of the University of Oxford. From 1285 to 1294 he was Dean of St Paul's Cathedral in London.
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Montfort
------------

And another coincidence, or not. Gervase of Tilbury was an "English canon lawyer" by profession (according to his Wikipedia article) and William de Montfort was a "Canon law jurist". They had the same profession. It is also possible that the choice of profession by William was inspired by that of Gervase, who was very probably the first Montfort to be a "canon lawyer", that is a lawyer specialized in the laws concerning the activity of the Catholic church. It would make sense that the Hereford Cathedral, where William de Montfort was chantor [cantor] would receive Gervase's manuscript for safekeeping.

It is interesting that the Hereford Castle is also linked to the Montfort family, being used as headquarters by Simon de Montfort in his rebellion against the king.


--------------
During the Second Barons' War from 1264 and 1267 the [Hereford] castle came for a time the headquarters of the baronial party headed by Simon de Montfort [...].
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereford_Castle#Early_history

During the Barons' Wars Hereford Castle became, for a time, the headquarters of the Baronial Party, which had the influential Simon de Montfort as its governor. When the eldest son of the King, Prince Edward, was taken prisoner at the battle of Lewes it was to Hereford that he was brought.
https://htt.herefordshire.gov.uk/herefordshires-past/the-medieval-period/castles/gazetteer-of-herefordshire-castles/parishes-h/hereford-castle/
-------------

It should not come as a surprise that Peter de Montfort (the father of William de Montfort) was an ally of Simon de Montfort.

-------------
Peter de Montfort (or Piers de Montfort) (c. 1205 – 4 August 1265) of Beaudesert Castle was an English magnate, soldier and diplomat. He is the first person recorded as having presided over Parliament as a parlour or prolocutor, an office now known as Speaker of the House of Commons. He was one of those elected by the barons to represent them during the constitutional crisis with Henry III in 1258. He was later a leading supporter of Simon de Montfort, 6th Earl of Leicester against the King. Both he and Simon de Montfort were slain at the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_de_Montfort
-------------

But the Montfort connection with Hereford is a hundred years older than the persons and events presented above. William of Breteuil, the son of William FitzOsbern (1011-1071), 1st Earl of Hereford, was married to Adeline de Montfort, daughter of Hugh de Montfort-sur-Risle.

------------
Adeline de Montfort-sur-Risle, married William of Breteuil, eldest son of William FitzOsbern, 1st Earl of Hereford.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_de_Montfort,_Lord_of_Montfort-sur-Risle
-----------

Not only a son of William FitzOsbern was married to a Montfort woman (from the Montfort-sur-Risle family), it turns out that the only daughter of William Fitz Osbern was married to a Montfort man (from the Montfort-sur-Meu family).

-------------
Emma Fitz-Osborn or Emma de Breteuil, and later Emma de Guader (died after 1096), was a Norman noblewoman, the wife of Ralph de Guader and the daughter of William FitzOsbern, Lord of Breteuil and later first Earl of Hereford of a new creation, who was a cousin and close adviser of William the Conqueror.[...] She went to live in Brittany with her husband, at their vast inherited estates, including the castles of Wader and Montfort. They had at least three children, and her son Raoul II inherited their estates.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_de_Guader,_Countess_of_Norfolk

Ralph de Gaël (otherwise Ralph de Guader, Ralph Wader or Radulf Waders or Ralf Waiet or Rodulfo de Waiet; before 1042 – c. 1100) was the Earl of East Anglia (Norfolk and Suffolk) and Lord of Gaël and Montfort (Seigneur de Gaël et Montfort). He was the leading figure in the Revolt of the Earls, the last serious revolt against William the Conqueror. [...] He married, in 1075 at the manor of Exning, Cambridgeshire, Emma, only daughter of William FitzOsbern, 1st Earl of Hereford and his first wife Alice (or Adelise/Adelissa), daughter of Roger I of Tosny. Their marriage united two extremely large estates, as well as noble lines, including to the English Saxon Kings and Queens of old. [...]  Following Ralph and Emma's escape from England, they settled at their inherited lands in Brittany. As well as Gaël, these lands included 40 parishes, including Gauder Castle and Montfort castle, located at the confluence of the Meu river. Ralph and Emma then lived as great Barons of Brittany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_de_Gael
---------------

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #73 : 03 Март 2024, 19:30:01 »
PART 3

And speaking of Montfort-sur-Meu, this is the second clue that supports my theory that Gervase of Tilbury was actually Gervase of Montfort. It is a "negative clue", that means its absence suports my theory. The third part of Otia Imperialia, Gervase's book, was dedicated to presenting people, events and places that were out of the ordinary. And in that book there is a glaring omission, the Brocéliande Forest, a place that was known in Gervase's time as an enchanted forest. There is no way that Gervase had not read a few (if not all) of the writings quoted below, that mention the forest of Brocéliande. Gervase knew about the legend of King Arthur and about Merlin, since he spoke in his book three times about the latter's feat of magically transporting the Stonehenge monument from Mount Killaraus in Ireland to its current place in southern England near Salisbury. Moreover, in the Brocéliande Forest (now named Paimpont Forest) there are stone monuments (menhirs), similar to the one of Stonehenge, that Gervase admired so much.

------------------
{automatic translation from French}
Brocéliande, also called Brocéliande forest, is a mythical and enchanted forest cited in several texts, most of which are linked to the Arthurian legend. These texts, dating from the Middle Ages for the oldest, feature Merlin, the fairies Morgana and Viviane, King Arthur, as well as certain knights of the round table. According to these stories, the forest of Brocéliande is home to the Valley of No Return, where Morgana traps unfaithful men until being foiled by Lancelot du Lac; and the Barenton Fountain, known for making it rain. Brocéliande would also be the place of Merlin's retirement, imprisonment or death.

The first text to mention it is the "Roman de Rou", written by the Norman poet Wace around 1160. [...] Brocéliande is cited from the 12th century in the novels of the subject of Brittany, which coincides with the first texts in the vernacular [French] language. Philippe Walter has shown that “the myth of Brocéliande is not a recent invention”. Wace cites the Breton knights who participated in the conquest of England, and among them "Those of Brecheliant (sic) of whom the Bretons tell many legends..." [...] We then have to wait for Chrétien de Troyes [1130-1190] who, twenty years later and in the Knight of the Lion, evokes Brocéliande as a marvelous forest whose fountain (which he does not name) is defended by an invincible knight. Between 1180 and 1230, Brocéliande is cited by various authors: Huon de Mery, Guillaume Le Breton, Giraud de Barri, Alexandre Neckam, Robert de Boron, and appears in the Occitan novel by Jauffré.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broc%C3%A9liande

Brocéliande, earlier known as Brécheliant and Brécilien, is a legendary enchanted forest that had a reputation in the medieval European imagination as a place of magic and mystery. Brocéliande is featured in several medieval texts, mostly related to the Arthurian legend and the characters of Merlin, Morgan le Fay, the Lady of the Lake, and some of the Knights of the Round Table. It first appeared in literature in the Roman de Rou chronicle by Wace in 1160 and today is most commonly identified as Paimpont forest in Brittany, France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broc%C3%A9liande

Paimpont Forest (French: Forêt de Paimpont, Breton: Koad Pempont), also known as Brocéliande Forest (French: Forêt de Brocéliande), is a temperate forest located around the village of Paimpont in the department of Ille-et-Vilaine in Brittany, France. Covering an area of 9,000 hectares, it is part of a larger forest area that covers the neighboring departments of Morbihan and Côtes-d'Armor. It contains the castles Château de Comper and Château de Trécesson as well as the Forges of Paimpont, a national historical site. It has been associated with the forest of Brocéliande and many locations from Arthurian legend, including the Val sans retour, the tomb of Merlin, and the fountain of Barenton.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paimpont_forest

Human beings have made their imprint on the district of Montfort en Brocéliande since prehistory. Ancient menhirs can be seen in the forest of Montfort, but it is at the end of the 11th century when the first castle is built.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montfort-sur-Meu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paimpont_forest#Megalithic_sites
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/For%C3%AAt_de_Paimpont#Les_sites_m%C3%A9galithiques
---------------

An enchanted forest with megalithic monuments similar to Stonehenge would have been a logical addition to the list of extraordinary places from Gervase's book. But then why would he not mention this known place in the book? In my opinion it was because the actual location of the forest is very close (25 km) to Montfort-sur-Meu. And Gervase staunchly avoids any mention of the Montfort name or of something associated with this name in his book. For example, although he was stronlgy opposed to the Albigenses/Cathars (a Christian sect from southern France), and he wrote a tirade about them in the book, he never mentioned the name of Simon de Montfort V, who fought a crusade against them. As I already said, Gervase was hiding his real identity, possibly because his family had an infamous reputation at that time, like the Montforts. He didn’t want to be identified by his readers, so no mention of Montfort or anything associated with the Montforts in his book. See the screenshot below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MJJ7nHNe7_m7nQJs_b-6ZBZH1FdTicHk/view?usp=sharing

And that's not all when it comes to coincidences, or not. In the Hereford Cathedral is kept the biggest medieval map of the world. An even bigger medieval map was the Ebstorf Map, which according to some researchers was created by Gervase of Tilbury.

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The Hereford Mappa Mundi (Latin: mappa mundi) is the largest medieval map still known to exist, depicting the known world. It is a religious rather than literal depiction, featuring heaven, hell and the path to salvation. The map is drawn in a form deriving from the T and O pattern, dating from c. 1300. It is displayed at Hereford Cathedral in Hereford, England. [...] A larger mappa mundi, the Ebstorf map, was destroyed by Allied bombing in 1943, though photographs of it survive.[...] The map is based on traditional accounts and earlier maps such as the one of the Beatus of Liébana codex, and is very similar to the Ebstorf Map, the Psalter world map, and the Sawley map (erroneously for considerable time called the Henry of Mainz map). It is not a literal map, and does not conform to geographical knowledge of the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereford_Mappa_Mundi

The Ebstorf Map was an example of a mappa mundi (a Medieval European map of the world). It was made by Gervase of Ebstorf, who was possibly the same man as Gervase of Tilbury, some time between 1234 and 1240.[...] The arguments for Gervase of Tilbury's being the mapmaker are based on the name Gervase, which was an uncommon name in Northern Germany at the time, and on some similarities between the world views of the mapmaker and Gervase of Tilbury. The editors of the Oxford Medieval Texts edition of Gervase of Tilbury's Otia Imperialia conclude that although their being the same man is an "attractive possibility", to accept it requires "too many improbable assumptions".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebstorf_Map
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As I said, all this is pure speculation in the absence of DNA test results that would confirm that the I-FGC22045 haplogroup was brought to the Balkans by a man whose family was linked to England, France and Italy, like Gervase of Tilbury. In a previous message I put a link to a map with Y-STR matches of my father from England, France and Italy that could have a haplogroup closely related to I-FGC22045 if they took a more detailed Y-DNA test, line Big Y or WGS. In the last week I have contacted some of them and asked if they intend to take a Big Y test. I updated the map according to their responses.

1) red markers: intends to take a Big Y test in the near future
2) dark grey markers: doesn't intend to take a Big Y test in the near future
3) light grey markers: no response

Map of Y-STR matches:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1tAy-Hp70_oDeBaA0jJKE1W2flO8iS38&usp=sharing

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #74 : 12 Март 2024, 22:33:42 »
This is a two part message.


PART 1

My initiative to contact interesting Y-STR matches of my father and ask if they plan to take the Big Y test was mildly successful. The purpose of this initiative is to find the haplogroup which is the “missing link” between the Scandinavian haplogroup (I-FGC22048/FGC22046) and the Balkan haplogroup (I-FGC22045). In my opinion, this missing haplogroup is to be found in England, France or Italy, places where both Gervase of Tilbury and the Montfort family were mentioned in medieval documents. Until this haplogroup is found, all my messages posted on this forum are pure genealogical speculation, which is plausible, but not confirmed by genetic data.

Branches of the I-FGC22046 (YFull) / I-FGC22048 (FTDNA) haplogroup (the Norman branch is presumed by me as the link between the existing Scandinavian and Balkan branches) :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XRuFHw7G92J9YdQn79RO2QN1fTpj_mXF/view?usp=sharing
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22046/

I contacted 15 men with the earliest known ancestor who lived close to a place linked to Gervase of Tilbury. Until now I received only 4 responses. 10 matches did not respond and 1 has an e-mail address which is no longer valid. Of the 4 responses, 3 were positive, that means they intend to take the Big Y test in the near future, and 1 was negative, he doesn’t intend to take the Big Y test. The three positive responses were influenced by the message that I wrote them. The negative response was received before I sent him a similar detailed message, and maybe he has changed his mind. From my experience on Ancestry, 23andMe, MyHeritage and FTDNA, when you contact genetic matches only 1 in 10 will respond. The fact that I received 4 responses means that actually in this case it was 1 in 4.

So, what was my message? I actually composed a similar message that was sent to all the matches, but it was customized for each one (some received more detailed messages, including with the references to the Montfort family). I wanted to emphasize the possible link between Gervase of Tilbury and the match, based on the place where their earliest known paternal ancestor was born.

These are the places linked to Gervase, so I customized the message accordingly (he also lived in Arles, but there is no match with the paternal ancestor from southern France) :

1) Wiltshire county (with the town of Salisbury), where part of his family was from.
2) Tilbury Juxta Clare, where in my opinion he was born.
3) Herefordshire county, where he sent his manuscript to be kept in the Hereford cathedral, county which is also linked to the Montfort family.
4) Nola, Campania, Italy, where he had a villa.
5) Palermo, Sicily, Italy, where he worked for William II, the Norman king of Sicily and southern Italy.

The message sent to the Y-STR matches:
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Hello,

You are an Y-12 [or Y-25] (12 [25] Markers) match on FamilyTreeDNA with my father, Constantin Munteanu (see the attached screenshot). I am curious if you plan to upgrade your Y-DNA test in order to have a more precise haplogroup, not the generic I-M253, which doesn't tell much about the paternal genealogy, other than the fact that you are of Germanic descent.

Why am I asking you this? Because you may have the same precise haplogroup as my father.

My father has taken the Big Y test and his haplogroup is I-PH3895 (I-M253>I-P109>I-FGC22045>I-FGC22061>I-PH3895). The I-P109 branch of I-M253 is Scandinavian in origin, but its sub branch I-FGC22045 is found only in the Balkans, mostly in the countries of former Yugoslavia and in Albania. A Scandinavian Y haplogroup in the Balkans is not usual, but it can be explained by multiple theories, one of them being that it was brought by the Normans, who fought with the Byzantines in the Balkans. The Normans were of Scandinavian origin on their paternal line.

I did some research about my father’s haplogroup and my theory is that the haplogroup was actually brought to Ragusa (today Dubrovnik, Croatia) by an Englishman of Norman origin named Gervase of Tilbury, who lived around the year 1200. He was a lawyer and cleric and worked for William II, the Norman king of Sicily and southern Italy between 1183-1190. The same William II had appointed a man named Gervase as the ruler (count) of the city-state of Ragusa/Dubrovnik between 1186-1190. In my opinion, supported by my research, Gervase the Norman count of Ragusa was Gervase of Tilbury.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gervase_of_Tilbury

Based on my research, the Tilbury from Gervase's name is actually Tilbury Juxta Clare in Essex. According to your tree, your earliest known paternal ancestor was from [Place, Country]. The distance between Tilbury Juxta Clare and [Place, Country] is N km, so they are not far apart. There is the possibility that you have an Y haplogroup that is closely related to my father's haplogroup. But, at this time you don't know your precise haplogroup, because you didn't take a Big Y test.

The Big Y test is expensive, around 300 USD. For someone interested in genealogy, it is definitely worth the price. But for someone not really into genealogy, it is hard to justify the expense. Other than discovering your precise haplogroup, Big Y can find matches that are very closely related (with whom you have a common ancestor in the last few hundred years).

It is your decision if you want to upgrade your Y-DNA test to Big Y. I don't want to put pressure on you, you decide what you do with your money. From my point of view, the Big Y test was a good investment, but you should judge from your point of view.

If you don’t plan to upgrade your Y-DNA test because of the cost, there is a cheaper option, paid by me, if you want to help my genealogical research. I can make an account for you on Yseq.net (a German company specialized in Y-DNA testing) and buy you a test for only 20 USD. The test kit will be mailed to you by Yseq at the address that you give me (can be a PO box, not your real address). This test checks if you have the FGC22055 mutation (SNP) on your Y chromosome similar to one that exists on my father’s chromosome, and if yes, then you have a very closely related haplogroup to my father’s one. This cheap test doesn't discover a more precise Y haplogroup for you, only verifies if the mutation is present.

You can read my research about my father’s Y-DNA haplogroup on the forum thread below. I began to speak about Gervase of Tilbury in the third part of the first page.

https://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,14941.0.html
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