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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #30 : 27 Ноября 2023, 22:48:54 »
This is a two part message.

PART 1

First a recapitulation. There are three branches of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup:

South Slavic (I-FGC22061)
North Slavic (I-FGC22052*)
Albanian (I-FGC22045*)

The asterisks mean that the two men with the (*) marked haplogroups actually have other, more precise haplogroups, but these remain to be defined at a later time, when other men with the same haplogroups appear. So, they have temporary haplogroups with an age much older than the actual age of their real haplogroups. That means the North Slavic haplogroup is actually a branch of I-FGC22052 haplogroup and the Albanian haplogroup is a branch of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.

According to YFull the I-FGC22045 haplogroup has appeared 2300 years ago (according to FTDNA 2500 years ago).
According to YFull the I-FGC22052 haplogroup has appeared 1200 years ago branching off from I-FGC22045.
According to YFull the I-FGC22061 haplogroup has appeared 1000 years ago branching off from I-FGC22052.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/

This means that the I-FGC22045 haplogroup has first split in a Slavic branch and an Albanian branch 1200 years ago. Then the Slavic branch has split in a South Slavic branch and a North Slavic branch 1000 years ago. We don’t know where these splits happened, outside or inside the Balkan Peninsula. And the time of the splits is presumed, in my opinion the splits happened later than the values calculated by YFull.

I explained in my previous messages that Gervase of Tilbury (with his Dubrovnik pseudonyms Gervase Naymeri and Gervase de Rille) was a Montfort from the Montfort-sur-Risle Norman family. He was probably the descendant of Gilbert de Gant, who married Alice de Montfort-sur-Risle and whose son Hugues (Hugh) III took the name “de Montfort” in order to inherit the land properties of his mother’s family. If we assume that the I-FGC22045 is the haplogroup of the Gant family, then the first known man with the haplogroup was Gilbert de Gant (Giselbert de Gand), born around 1040. We know that Gervase of Tilbury was born around 1150. They were born 110 years apart, so that means they had the same Y haplogroup or a slightly different one. In consequence, another man from the Gant line is the ancestor of the Albanian branch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_de_Gant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_III_de_Montfort

But was there another Gand/Gant or Montfort present in Albania earlier than Gervase was present in Dubrovnik? It turns out that yes, at least two.

There is an inscription on a marble column found in the village of Ballsh (Albania) that mentions a Robert de Montfort. It is named “the Ballshi inscription”. The marble column was reused probably as a grave stone (headstone) for the tomb of Robert de Montfort, who died in 1108 while on a crusade of the Normans against the Byzantines. The text of the epitaph can be read on the Wikipedia article in Albanian and it mentions that Robert de Montfort was the commander of the men from England who fought under the Norman leadership. The Norman leader was Bohemond I of Antioch ( Bohemond of Taranto / Bohemond of Hauteville).

---------------
Ballsh (Albanian definite form: Ballshi) is a town and a former municipality in Fier County, southern Albania. At the 2015 local government reform it became a subdivision and the seat of the municipality Mallakastër. It was the seat of the former District of Mallakastër.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballsh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallakast%C3%ABr_District

The Ballshi inscription is an epigraph from the time of the Bulgarian Prince (Knyaz) Boris I (852–889) testifying to the christianization of Bulgaria. The inscription was unearthed near Ballshi, Albania, in 1918.

The Medieval Greek–language Bulgarian inscription covers the upper part of a marble column which also features, in its bottom part, the later Latin epitaph of Norman commander Robert de Montfort who died in 1108, with a cross in the middle of the column. The column was discovered by Austro-Hungarian soldiers during World War I 25 kilometres southwest of the Albanian town of Berat, near Ballshi, among the ruins of a monastery.[...] The current location of the inscription is not known. In the first half of the 20th century it was exhibited in a museum in Durrës. The National Archaeological Museum in Sofia preserves a plaster print of the epigraph.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballshi_inscription

Hic est subpositus de Forti Monte Robertus,
corpore formosus, probus armis, vir generosus.
Sub duce Normannis cunctis quoque praefuit Anglis.
Dumque iuventutis dives floreret in annis,
deseruit mundum, dominique petendo sepulcrum
hic obiit Phebo iam sub libra quater orto.
Det, Roberte, tibi sua gaudia rex paradisi.

https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbishkrimi_i_Ballshit

{automatic translation from Latin}

Here lies Fort Monte Robert,
handsome in body, honest in arms, a noble man.
Under the leadership of the Normans he presided over all the English.
While the rich youth flourished in years,
He forsook the world, and the Lord, seeking the grave
Here Phoebus died, already under the weight four times.
Robert, may the king of paradise give you his joys.
---------------

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #31 : 27 Ноября 2023, 22:56:11 »
PART 2

Robert de Montfort is present in the book Historia Ecclesiastica written by Orderic Vitalis (1075-1142).

----------------
CH XXIV. Robert de Montfort banished - He joins, with other knights, Bohemond's expedition against the emperor Alexius - Its failure before Durazzo - The Franks disperse, after a humiliating treaty.

In the year of our Lord 1107, King Henry assembled his barons, and appealed to them for judgment against Robert de Montfort [2], on a charge of having broken his fealty [pledging of allegiance of a vassal to a feudal lord]. Being conscious of his guilt, he obtained leave to depart for Jerusalem, giving up all his lands to the king. He then commenced his journey in company with some of his companions in arms, and arriving in Apulia, met Bohemond, and found to his joy several of his countrymen. For Hugh de Puiset, Simon Anet, Ralph de Pont-Echanfre, and Josceline his brother, and some other Cisalpines were with Bohemond. Several knights from other countries were waiting for an opportunity of crossing the sea, all desirous of fighting with the duke [Bohemond] against the [Byzantine] emperor, and in the meantime both they and their horses were maintained by Bohemond's liberality. He supported so many troops for two years that he exhausted his treasury; providing also cheerfully ships for all without any passage money. He gave a hearty welcome to Robert de Montfort, and not having learnt the cause of his quitting his native country, as he was hereditary marshal of Normandy [3] the duke gave him a high rank in his army. He had long assembled ships and troops in the ports of Italy, and furnished all with abundant provisions out of his revenues, so that a powerful armament was prepared for making war on the emperor. At length the crusaders sailed to Thessaly, with a fair wind, and besieged Durazzo [Durrës, Albania] for a long time. The magnanimous duke tried various methods of assaulting the place, but he found his greatest impediment in those who ought to have seconded his efforts. Even his brother Guy [of Hauteville] and Robert de Montfort, in whom he trusted most, had the treachery to espouse the emperor's cause, and being blinded by the large bribes he sent them, had the address to derange the plans of their chief.

For the duke having prepared his engines and appointed a certain day for making the assault, they on some crafty pretence demanded a truce or gave the enemy clandestine intelligence by which they might avoid their iminent danger. In this manner Bohemond and his army were long deceived by the treachery of his friends, and provisions begining to fail, the crusaders dwindled away in a foreign land. At length, not being able to endure the severe famine, they deserted in small bands, and dispersing through Macedonia, came to the emperor's terms, who gave them the choice of either remaining in his service, or departing where they pleased. [...] Bohemond was much distressed on finding that he could not accomplish his vast designs, but although daily pressed by his comrades to seek the emperor's favour, he long refused.[...] They argued thus: "We are paying the penalty of our own rashness in having engaged in a bold enterprise far from our native country and beyond our strength [...]. By this language the valiant duke understood plainly the disaffection of his comrades, and being apprehensive of incurring the disgrace of an irretrievable disaster, he gave a reluctant consent, and, making peace with the emperor returned in deep grief to Apulia. [...] Guy [of Hauteville] fell sick soon afterwards, and publicly confessed the treachery of which he had been guilty, but he could never obtain his pardon from his brother. Robert de Montfort also, his accomplice in the treason, died about the same time, and no one said a word in his praise.

[2] This nobleman, as we have already learnt, was commander-in-chief of the Norman army in Maine in the year 1090. He was brother of Hugh [III], third of that name, and uncle of Hugh IV de Montfort, who married Adeline de Meulan.
[3] It does not appear how Robert de Montfort possessed an hereditary title to command the army of Normandy; if any such right existed it would have belonged to his eldest brother.

https://www.melocki.org.uk/ordericus/Book11.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orderic_Vitalis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Dyrrhachium_(1107%E2%80%931108)
-------------------

Apparently Robert de Montfort broke his pledge of allegiance to the king Henry I and as a consequence his land properties from Haughley, Suffolk, England were confiscated by the king and given to Henry of Essex (situation discussed in a previous message). He was banished from England, so he joined Bohemond of Antioch in his war against the Byzantine empire and took part in the failed attempt to conquer Dyrrhachium / Durazzo / Durrës. He died shortly after the peace treaty between the Normans and the Byzantine empire at Devol. The treaty was witnessed by William of Gand/Gant (see the Wikipedia article below), possibly a distant relative of Robert de Montfort on his Gant paternal line, although William was on the Byzantine side, as were other Normans, for example Roger (son of Dagobert), the founder of the noble Byzantine family of Rogerios. The Ballshi inscription is thus confirmed by the book of Orderic Vitalis.

--------------
From Alexios' imperial court, the treaty was witnessed by the sebastos [Byzantine aristocrats] Marinos of Naples, Roger son of Dagobert, Peter Aliphas, William of Gand, Richard of the Principate, Geoffrey of Mailli, Hubert son of Raoul, Paul the Roman, envoys from the Queen's relation (from the family of the former cral/king of Bulgaria), the ambassadors Peres and Simon from Hungary, and the ambassadors Basil the Eunuch and Constantine. Many of Alexios' witnesses were themselves Westerners, who held high positions in the Byzantine army and at the imperial court; Basil and Constantine were ambassadors in the service of Bohemond's relatives in Sicily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Devol#Settlements
-------------------

It is interesting that there are two Albanian men (one of Vlach origin) with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup who are from the Mallakastër district, where the Ballshi inscription was discovered. See the screenshot below of a page from the public database of the Albanian DNA project RRënjët. None have taken a Big Y or WGS test, their haplogroups were discovered by SNP testing at YSEQ.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EX8Y4kZ12uTq2RLKYtSv6Y3DBdBjWr3Q/view?usp=sharing
https://rrenjet.com/databaza-publike/

And there is another I-FGC22045 Albanian named Gjoka (of probable Vlach origin) who is from the town of Pogradec on the southern shore of the Ohrid lake, which is close (30 km) to the Devoll district where the Devol fortress was located (the fortress was the place where the treaty between the Normans and Byzantines was signed). Gjoka is at this time the only I-FGC22045 Albanian who has taken a WGS test.

----------------
Devol (Bulgarian: Девол) also Deabolis or Diabolis, (Greek: Δεάβολις) was a medieval fortress and bishopric in western Macedonia, located south of Lake Ohrid in what is today the south-eastern corner of Albania (Devoll District). Its precise location is unknown today, but it is thought to have been located by the river of the same name (today Devoll River), and on the Roman Via Egnatia road.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devol_(Albania)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogradec
------------

So, it is possible that either Robert de Montfort or William of Gant/Gand, who lived in Albania as a Byzantine aristocrat, was the ancestor of the Albanian line of I-FGC22045. The second option is more probable, but both could be true, in case there are multiple Albanian branches of I-FGC22045, just like is the case with the Slavic line. We will know the truth when more Albanians would take a Big Y or WGS test.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #32 : 04 Декабря 2023, 20:07:00 »
This is a two part message.

PART 1

As I already said, any genealogical speculation must be confirmed by DNA testing in order to be considered true.

My theory is that Gervase the Norman count was the man who brought the I-FGC22045 to the Balkans and his real paternal surname was “de Montfort” and maternal surname “d’Évreux”. But I discovered two Norman families with the Montfort name, one named “Montfort-l’Amaury” and the other “Montfort-sur-Risle”. Both were also present in England after the Norman Conquest. Gervase could have been part of either one, because in my opinion he used the surnames “Naymeri” (N+Aimery, from Amaury) and “de Rille” (from Rille, alternative spelling of Risle, used in Latin).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Montfort
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maison_de_Montfort-sur-Risle

The Montfort-sur-Risle family originated from Thurstin de Bastembourg, himself the son of a Viking warrior named Anslech de Bricquebec who settled in Normandy. However, in Gervase’s time, this line had no male descendants in Normandy or England, and the ownership of the “Montfort-sur-Risle” domain passed to Hugues/Hugh III, the son of Alice de Montfort and Gilbert de Gant/Gand, who took the name de Montfort. I spoke in my previous message about the fact that two Normans were confirmed as present in Albania in 1108, namely Robert de Montfort and William de Gand/Gant and I said that they had the same Y chromosome, which is not true. Robert de Montfort was the brother of Alice de Montfort and had the Y chromosome of the Montfort line descending from Thurstin de Bastembourg and the Viking Anslech de Bricquebec. William de Gant was probably related (maybe brother?) to Gilbert de Gant and so had the Y chromosome of the Montfort line descending from Gilbert de Gant.

The Montfort-l’Amaury family originated from Guillaume de Hainaut, possible son of Amaury, count of Valenciennes (born in Évreux !).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_de_Montfort_of_Hainaut

The Y haplogroup of these historical personalities is not known, but maybe we can find it in their descendants. So, I searched to see if there are FTDNA projects with the Montfort and Gant/Gand surnames. And they are:

1) The Gant-Gaunt FTDNA Project

----------------
The primary focus of the Gant-Gaunt and variants DNA Project is the use of Y-DNA Testing to help piece together the various Gant-Gaunt surname lines.
[...]
Right now, there are three distinct lines identified by Y-DNA marker values.  They are:
 
-  The Peter Gaunt of Sandwich, Massachussets line
-  The John Gant/Gent of Isle of Wight, Virginia line
-  A Culpeper County, Virginia, Gant/Gaunt line that matches a gentleman with roots in Cheshire, England

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/gant/about/results
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/gant/dna-results
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/gant/about/news
--------------

The FTDNA project is a little confusing, because in the News tab there is a fourth line, from South Carolina, originating from Thomas Gaunt(e) born in 1539 in Lincolnshire county, England.

Now let’s look at the DNA results. I will mention only the men with a precise I1 haplogroup (there are others with the generic I-M253 and others with R haplogroups).

Haplogroup I-A1811: Kit N63563, ancestor Lunsford Gaunt, born about 1765, Virginia, USA
Haplogroup I-Y5497: Kit 540293, ancestor James M Gantt 1834-1899, South Carolina, USA
Haplogroup I-A5475: Kit 184854, ancestor Richard Gaunt born about 1765 Monmouth County, New Jersey, USA
These three haplogroups are under the branch I-Z141, not under I-L22, like I-FGC22045.

The conclusion is that the ancestor of the I-FGC22045 was not related on his paternal line to these American families named Gant/Gaunt. This does not mean the I-FGC22045 ancestor was not descending from the Norman Gant/Gand family. And that’s because the surname Gant derives from the city of Ghent, today in Belgium. It is normal that men originating from this city had different haplogroups.

---------------
Ghent (Dutch: Gent; French: Gand; historically known as Gaunt in English) is a city and a municipality in the Flemish Region of Belgium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghent
-------------

What’s more, my father has Y-STR matches with surnames similar to Gant/Gand/Gent:

a) D.L Gent, an Y-12 match who has only the generic I-M253 haplogroup after an Y-12 STR test.

b) M. Ćetković-Gentula, an Y-12 and Y-25 match from Bosnia-Herzegovina. M. Ćetković-Gentula very probably has the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, but has only taken the I-111 test. His earliest known paternal ancestor is Ćetko Gentulić born around 1780. If “ulić” is the suffix (termination), then the original name was Gent. But it is also possible that the termination is “ić”, so the original name was Gentul. Either way, this is not a Slavic surname, maybe Vlach if we consider “Gentul” as the original name. There is the surname Ghenț (pronounced like Ghents/Ghentz in English) in Rumania, but is very rare and the surname Ghențul is even more rare. “Ghențul” in Rumanian is pronunced like “Gencul” in Serbo-Croatian, so not like “Gentul”.

c) four Y-12 matches with the name Gentry, and one of them has the I-BY88624 haplogroup, which is a branch of I-P109, but distantly related to I-FGC22045.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #33 : 04 Декабря 2023, 20:08:14 »
PART 2

2) The Mumford FTDNA Project

There is no Montfort project on FTDNA, but it is known that the French name Montfort has been transformed in Mumford in England, which is more easy to pronounce for English speakers. There is a Mumford Project, but the DNA results for this group are not available.

------------------
The surname MUMFORD in England is a corruption of at least three different surnames with four different origins. These surnames are MONTFOORT, de MONTFORT, and MUNDEFORD. The MONTFOORTs originated in the town of Montfoort in Holland, now a suburb of Utrecht. The MUNDEFORDs were an ancient family whose settlement in Norfolk
predated William’s invasion in 1066. The de MONTFORTs originated in two locations and are of entirely different stock. The de MONTFORTs of Montfort-sur-Risle in Normandy were Norman and the hereditary constables of Normandy. Their ancestry can be traced back to the Viking Oslac [Anslech of Bricquebec]. Hugh de Montfort II was with William [the Conqueror] at [the battle of] Hastings. The de MONTFORTs of Montfort l'Amaury were descended from an illegitimate son of King Robert of France. Descendants of all four of these families can be found in England which greatly complicates tracing MUMFORD ancestors.[...]

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/mumford/about/background
----------------

I searched in my father’s list of Y-STR matches and found an Y-12 match named Mumford with the I-Y78878 haplogroup, which is I1, but under the branch I-Z63, not under I-L22 like I-FGC22045. So, again, a very distant relationship between the two haplogroups.

This doesn’t mean Montfort was not the name of the ancestor with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. As it was said in the Mumford Project, there are 4 different lines that have contemporary descendants with the name Mumford. We don’t know to which line belongs the Mumford who is an Y-12 match, because his earliest known ancestor was from Missouri, USA and there is no genealogical link to an English ancestor.

I have discovered another Montfort family who had links to France and England and lived in Gervase’s time. This is the Montfort-sur-Meu family, from the commune of Montfort-sur-Meu, department of Ille-et-Vilaine in Brittany, France, close to the town of Rennes. His founder was Raoul/Ralph I de Gaël, lord of Gaël and Montfort.

------------------
{automatic translation from French}
The barony of Gaël-Montfort-Brécilien originally included more than 40 parishes. But, following the dismemberments of Montfort, Montauban-de-Bretagne, Mauron, Lohéac, it only extended its jurisdiction over 12 parishes: Gaël Concoret, Mauron, Saint-Léry, Saint-Jouan-de-l 'Isle, Néant, Paimpont, Illifaut, Saint-Méen, Trémorel and Loscouët. From the 11th century it belonged to a powerful family, known as the Gaël family, which armed itself with silver and a cross adorned with gules, and which took the name of Montfort at the end of the 11th century.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maison_de_Montfort-sur-Meu

Ralph de Gaël ([...] before 1042 – c. 1100) was the Earl of East Anglia (Norfolk and Suffolk) and Lord of Gaël and Montfort (Seigneur de Gaël et Montfort). He was the leading figure in the Revolt of the Earls, the last serious revolt against William the Conqueror. Ralph de Gaël was born as a noble before 1042, most probably about 1040. He was the high-born son of an Earl Ralph who was English, or born in England, and lived at the time of the Confessor. Some sources believe this to be Ralph the Staller, while others argue that he was the son of Earl Ralph Mantes of Hereford, and who briefly held the Earldom of East Anglia. Both English and French sources highlight that he had mixed ancestry, both English, and with a Breton parent, possibly his mother, that was 'Bryttisc' meaning 'British', a Breton. Other sources state that it was his father who was of Breton ancestry (although born in Norfolk), and that his mother was English. French sources state that he was a 'man of illustrious birth, descended from the Kings of the Bretons', including Warrior Saint King Judicaël, the castle of Gaël being the traditional seat of the Kings of Brittany.
[...] His wedding feast and associations highlight connections to both Anglo-Saxon and Danish nobles, as well as his vast inherited lands in Brittany.
[...] Shortly after the Norman conquest, he held large estates in Norfolk, as well as property in Suffolk, Essex, Hertford, and possibly other counties. He was named Earl of East Anglia by William I. Some accounts suggest that his service in the conquest restored lands that were already his by inheritance.
[...] He married, in 1075 at the manor of Exning, Cambridgeshire, Emma, only daughter of William FitzOsbern, 1st Earl of Hereford and his first wife Alice (or Adelise/Adelissa), daughter of Roger I of Tosny.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_de_Gael
--------------

The conclusion is that at this time the link between the I-FGC22045 haplogroup and the Montfort or Gant/Gand medieval families is not confirmed, but that doesn’t mean it is not possible to be confirmed in the future. There are many men of British paternal origin on FTDNA who have taken only an Y-STR test and maybe bought a SNP pack, so their haplogroup is I-M253 or I-P109.  Maybe some of them will eventually buy a Big Y or a WGS test and will appear as having one of the branches of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #34 : 13 Декабря 2023, 20:38:22 »
In this message I will answer two questions, so this is a two part message.

PART 1

1) Was there anyone from the Montfort family who was named Gervase?

The answer to this question is not easy, because the medieval archives from England are not fully digitized and stored online, so searching in the archives must be done locally, not from a computer connected to the internet. Searching for a “Gervase de Montfort” on the internet finds no documents containing this name. But that does not mean such a person never existed. The problem is the fact that the medieval documents were concerned mainly with ownership of land properties and transactions with them. In Norman England only the first born son inherited the land, so he is the one present in the documents, and his brothers are completely absent, like they never existed.

Peter Rook in his book “Man of Essex” has an interesting theory about the fact that Gervase would have been the third son of the family, because his name was not very popular at that time and was mostly associated with boys that as adults would become intellectuals, not landowners or warriors. More popular names used by the Normans were Robert, Roger and Simon, so these would be the names chosen for the first two sons.

---------------------
The middle ages were dangerous times for everyone, and knights were in more danger than most; families were often large since so many members died prematurely, and it was often the case that families begat younger sons to step into the shoes of their older siblings when needed in order to protect their lands dynastically. Inheritance and feudal requirement were interlinked, so people tried to make sure they had sons rather than just a son. Not being the first son did restrict one's choice, as following the Norman invasion, primogeniture became the norm in England. Families seldom divided Patrimonial land, and there are many tales of younger sons travelling widely to increase their fama, their fame since they were born without the promise of land or a hand in marriage. Additionally, younger sons also went into the church or became secular clerics, as did Gervase, his name may tell us that he was indeed a younger son. The name Gervase is rarer among warriors but more common for clerics and physicians, as we can observe in the number of Gervase, Gervais or Gervasius we see in clerical roles. For example, King Stephen named his illegitimate son Gervase and he, known as Gervase of Blois, became the Abbot of Westminster. Gervasius, the name, came to Normandy along with the relics of an early eponymous Saint, brought to Rouen in 386 by the ex Roman Legionnaire and first Bishop of Rouen Saint Victricius. Normans remembered Saint Gervasius as a martyr, and his relics, the bloody clothes from his shroud, had been presented to Saint Victricius by the illustrious Saint Ambrose and were preserved in the Priory and Hospital of Saint Gervais in Rouen. It was here that William the Conqueror chose to die in 1087, and it was here that Thomas Becket rested after an illness and was visited by both King Henry II together with King Louis VII of France. To be named after this Saint was unusual for a warrior but not unknown; the Red book of the Exchequer tells us of twenty-six knights with the name Gervasius, but compare this to the seven-hundred-and-forty-eight Roberts, Robertus, Roberti, Roberto, and two-hundred-and-eleven Rogers, Rogerus, in the same document.[...] As a third child, Gervase's parents may have had a clerical life planned for him from the beginning.

Peter Edward Rook
Man of Essex: Family Background and Early Life of Gervase of Tilbury 1020 - 1163 (pp. 33-34).
----------------------

If this theory is true, and it probably is, then the chances to discover a Gervase de Montfort in the archives is slim, because as I said, the early medieval documents were mainly about land ownership and wars of conquest which were also linked to land ownership. That means in the documents there are only Montforts who were land owners or warriors, which is actually true at this time, but that could change in the future, if more archives are digitized.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #35 : 13 Декабря 2023, 20:40:38 »
PART 2

2) Was there a Montfort named Naymeri?

In my opinion Gervase the Norman count has used two psedonyms, Gervasius Naymeri and Gervasius de Rille, which are present in the Ragusan (Dubrovnik) documents. Naymeri is a Southern French form of the Germanic name Aymeri. There were Montforts with the Northern French version of the name (Amaury de Montfort), and there was also a family named Montfort-l’Amaury. There were none with the name Naymeri Montfort.

Gervasius Naymeri was not the only one with the Naymeri surname. In the Ragusan documents there is also a Lucarius Naimeri who lived in the same place (Ragusa) and in the same time period as Gervasius Naimeri. It should be noted that there are documents in Latin where the name “Geruasius de Maynero” is used instead of Geruasius Naymeri, although it is the same person. This can be proven very easy. There is a document from Codex Diplomaticus vol. 4 (Dubrovnik 1251, page 452) that contains the Latin text: “Slauam uxorem quondam Gervasii Naymeri et filium eius Philippum”, which means “Slava, the wife of the late Gervasius Naymeri and his son Philip”. In Codex Diplomaticus vol. 6 (Dubrovnik 1284, page 460) appears the text: “Desaze et Bone filiabus Geruasii de Maynero”, that means “Desaza and Bona, daughters of Geruasius de Maynero”. In the same document (page 461) appears the text: “Stane filie Philippi de Maynero”, that means “Stana, daughter of Philip de Maynero”. So, from these documents results that Gerusius Naymeri/Mayneri had a son named Philip and two daughters named Desaza and Bona. This also confirms that the name Naymeri was later changed in Mayneri/Maynero.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fjCJqaOKQmJ9-WTVsBkGZa6OwbKDxFUF/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iJXjSXLtbdUtlWR_hG3rXRxxGAuXcdNb/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NhEax9lTLrxOsE5u2gqnu8zwc9Qp7M4O/view?usp=sharing

The name Naymeri/Naimeri was Slavicized as Majnerević (Majner+ević), so the position of the letters N and M was switched, like in Maynero. See the screenshots from the index of Codex Diplomaticus volumes 3 and 5 and the screenshot of a document from Dubrovnik in 1253 written in Cyrillic where the name Miholo Mainerević is present (Codex Diplomaticus vol. 4 , page 532).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19G_DJXkgSbsTPOWr2kBfjS65PM0l41A3/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y-nu_OPusRdse_edjUg7Gkd8Ilie8VIV/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GSId7mi76IYt_c21_-1hoy9SQe39bura/view?usp=sharing

But why change Naymeri to Mayneri? In my opinion it was done because Mayneri was the Italian version of the name, proof being the existence to this day of the surnames Maineri and Mainieri in Italy. The Italian language was one of the official languages in Ragusa/Dubrovnik and many of the citizens (especially from the noble families) claimed to have Italian ancestry, so Mayneri was more familiar than Naymeri.

https://namespedia.com/details/Maineri
https://namespedia.com/details/Mainieri

But that’s not all. It turns out that there were Montforts named Maineri/Mainieri that somehow were linked to the name Gervase.

----------------
MAINIER de Montfort, son of AMAURY Seigneur de Montfort & his wife Bertrade --- (-before 1091).  "Ivo de Curba villa" dedicated "ecclesiæ Sanctorum Martyrum Gervasii et Protasii Cheonis" by charter dated to [1048/61], witnessed by “...Amalricus de Sparnoto, Simon et Mainerius filii eius...”.  "Amalricus miles" founded the priory of Saint-Thomas d’Epernon, with the consent of "conjugis mee…Bertredis…et filiorum meorum…Simonis…atque Mainerii", by charter dated [11 Apr 1052/Jul 1053].  “...Mainerus de Sparr[n]one...” subscribed the charter dated 29 May 1067 under which Philippe I King of France confirmed the possessions of Paris Saint-Martin-des-Champs.  "Mainerium, fratrem Symonis de Monte Forti" donated property, with the consent of "Simone fratre eius comiteque Belli Montis Ivonis", by charter dated to before 1091, which also names "domnus Simon, filio suo Amalrico".  "Mainerius" granted free passage at Saint-Piat to the monks of Chartres Saint-Père, with the consent of "conjuge sua Elysabeth, filiisque suis Amalrico et Willelmo", by undated charter.  Seigneur d'Epernon.

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/pardreman.htm#_Toc521050641

Amaury I de Montfort (died c. 1053) was Lord of Montfort, son of Guillaume de Montfort of Hainaut, the first Lord of Montfort. The castle of Montfort l'Amaury, of which he started the construction, was completed by his son Simon I de Montfort, who succeeded him as Lord of Montfort. He married Bertrade.
He and his wife had three children:
Simon I de Montfort (died 25 September 1087)
Mainier de Montfort, Seigneur d'Épernon (died before 1091)
Eva (died 23 Jan 1099), married William Crispin (died 8 January 1074), son of Gilbert I Crispin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaury_I_de_Montfort

Mainier de Montfort on Geni
https://www.geni.com/people/Mainier-de-Montfort-seigneur-d-Epernon/6000000001544462307

Mainer de Montfort on FamilySearch
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/MXNS-4TR/mainer-de-montfort-1027-1087

Genealogical tree (in PDF format) of the Montfort l’Amaury family
http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Montfort.pdf
-----------------

So, the existence of Mainier/Mainer de Montfort is confirmed by the fact that he appears as a witness alongside his father (Amaury I) and brother (Simon) in the document about the dedication of a church in France named after the saints Gervasius and Protasius.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gervasius_and_Protasius

Mainier de Montfort had inherited from his father the Épernon domain, whereas his brother Simon had inherited the Montfort l’Amaury domain.

-------------------
Épernon was originally the home of the counts of Montfort and Amaury. In the 11th century, they raised the fortresses of Épernon and Montfort for the protection of the Château de St Léger and granted a charter to the town. [...] Charters of the 12th and 13th century variously refer to the town as Sparno and Sparnonum, but by the 14th century it had evolved to Esparnon and Espernon, very close to its present appellation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89pernon
------------------

Épernon is close to Montfort l’Amaury and Évreux (see screenshot). Actually the third wife of Simon de Montfort, the brother of Mainier, was Agnes d’Evreux. It is not known the surname of the wife of Mainier de Montfort, only her name, Elisabeth/Isabelle. Maybe she also was a d’Evreux. From the genealogical tree linked above, we can see that Mainier de Montfort had two sons, Amaury and Guillaume/William. Amaury had two sons, Simon and Mainier (same name as his grandfather).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G24lD8XPnFX6zioGp5J3rGh5U-tcYK5_/view?usp=sharing

What is interesting is the fact that the Épernon domain given to Mainier de Montfort and his descendants was later (approx. in 1223) owned by the descendants of Simon de Montfort, Mainier’s brother. There are two possibilities for this to happen. The first one was the situation in which were no more descendants from the Mainier line, although it is known that Mainier had at least two grandsons. The second one is that Mainier’s descendants ceded the rights to the Épernon domain because they received another lands in compensation. This second situation is possible if Mainier’s descendants lived in England after the Norman conquest and traded their land in France for land in England.

---------------
Amaury I transmitted Epernon to his second son Mainier, who is shown below. The seigneurie reverted to the senior branch [Simon] of the Montfort-l’Amaury family, although the date has not yet been ascertained. Laure de Montfort, daughter of Amaury V de Montfort Duc de Narbonne, Comte de Toulouse et Seigneur de Montfort who died in 1241, and wife of Fernando de Castilla who was heir of the county of Ponthieu, is recorded as Dame d’Epernon: "Ferrandus…regis Hyspanie filius, heres Pontivil et dominus Sparnonis ac miles et domina Laura de Monteforti eiusdem Sparnonis domina eius uxor" issued letters to the priory of Saint-Thomas d’Epernon by charter dated Feb 1261. She transmitted Epernon to her son Jean Comte d’Aumâle.

https://gw.geneanet.org/cyprienpl?lang=en&iz=5479&p=mainier+ier+seigneur+d+epernon&n=de+maasgau
(free Geneanet account needed in order to see the page)
---------------

In conclusion, Gervase of Tilbury was possibly a descendant of Mainier de Montfort, and the changing of the name Naymeri in Mayneri/Maynero could have been a clue about this filiation.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #36 : 21 Декабря 2023, 20:12:26 »
This is a two part message.

PART 1

In my message from 7 November (page 2 of this thread) I argued that Gervase of Tilbury was a “de Montfort” on his paternal line and a “D’Evreux” on his maternal line. If we consider that Gervase of Tilbury was the ancestor of the men with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup, then it is possible that these men have little segments of DNA inherited from him. So, the following question arises:

Does my father have autosomal matches who have Montfort or D’Evreux ancestors?

The answer is yes, but that doesn’t mean he is related to them on the Montfort or D’Evreux line. These matches are Americans, and Americans usually have mixed European ancestry, so they also have ancestors from Eastern Europe or the Balkans. In the majority of these situations the genealogical relationship is on the Eastern European or Balkan line, not on the British line. However, there are exceptions to this rule, for example I remember an American match who had a Rumanian line in his tree, but one of his parents was also a match, and that parent had no Rumanian ancestry, only Western European one. And of course there are matches with no Eastern European or Balkan ethnicity. Some of them have German ancestry and they could be related to my father on their German line (my father’s ancestor with the I-FGC22061 haplogroup was from Făgăraș, a region with a sizable population of German Saxons until the half of the 20th century).

I will present below the matches who have ancestors that are named Montfort. These matches can have surnames derived from Montfort (like Mumford, Mountford, etc). I will post links to their trees in PDF format that are stored on my Google Drive account. On Ancestry you cannot download the trees in their entirety, but only the closest ancestors and then for the more distant ancestors one branch at a time spread on multiple pages. I will post the tree with the line that goes to the Montfort ancestors, who are on the last page of the PDF file. There are situations when the user surname does not correspond with the paternal name from the tree. This is because the match is a female and the name from the tree is her maiden name. I also post a screenshot with the ethnicity estimate of the match provided by Ancestry.

============
1) J. Allen (11 cM shared DNA on 1 segment)

She has an ancestor named John Moundforde born in 1500 in Huntingdon, Huntingdonshire, England.
After that there were other variations of the name, like Mountforde, Mumforde.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1au-XkwUxtDF8AGW78cU8KjLAQTFPI2Oa/view?usp=sharing

She has no Eastern European or Balkan ethnicity:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TfS-9KMaLRazNLXIzSNIAxdrZ1a_7TvK/view?usp=sharing
============

============
2) J. Brown (9 cM shared DNA on 1 segment)

He has as ancestors the couple Simon de Montfort (b. 1025) and Agnes d’Evreux (b. 1030), which in my opinion can be also the ancestors of the Norman count Gervase.

However, he has a grandmother of Hungarian origin, descending from Sandor (Alexander) Duma de Vajda Hunyad. My father has another match (on FTDNA and GEDmatch) named M. Markowski, who is a descendant of the same Duma de Vajda Hunyad, so the genealogical relationship is probably on the Hungarian line, not the British one.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vsKgJWD_cPqgPofwJjpggHSuZGtKP_kx/view?usp=sharing

Simon de Montfort
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_I_de_Montfort

Agnes d’Evreux
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agn%C3%A8s_d%27%C3%89vreux

He has 6% Eastern European ancestry and no Balkan ancestry.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1avR1SfhB9__Qytnen8rJBRfdSXHD1Xv3/view?usp=sharing
===========

===========
3) W. Merrill (8 cM shared DNA on 1 segment)

He has an ancestor named Elizabeth DeMontfort, born in 1273 in Henley In Arden, Warwickshire, England.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nbsLX3CG-V5pKDn4Ej7MRd-4Wur9fCBB/view?usp=sharing

Elizabeth DeMontfort
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_de_Montfort,_Baroness_Montagu
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/9CNJ-GZT/elizabeth-de-montfort-baroness-of-montagu-1273-1354

He has no Eastern European or Balkan ethnicity:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O08dMdWz9Ys-HVjLRbvHdbs3F8GVjwbQ/view?usp=sharing
===========

===========
4) F. M. [McGrath] (8 cM shared DNA on 1 segment)

He has an ancestor named Edward Mumford born in 1650 in Keynsham, Somerset, England.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aoxQm_4TNc-O45Jkgi8WnVXmB8-70AD5/view?usp=sharing

Edward Mumford
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/LZPC-MRW/edward-mumford-2nd-1650-1694
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mumford-48

He has no Eastern European or Balkan ethnicity:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gDd5nFIv0zoHzoXaE6AYIt8c7wSVaUC6/view?usp=sharing
===========

===========
5) J. Rocco (8 cM shared DNA on 1 segment)

She has an ancestor named Eleanor Fitz Monfort [actually Montfort] born in 1394 probably in Kirklington, Yorkshire, England.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GL6jxuZecrHKJ6yF63mn4WJ4KRG6RIrV/view?usp=sharing

Eleanor Fitz Montfort
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/KD9F-NC2/eleanor-montfort-1394-1473

She has 15 % Eastern European and 6 % Balkan ethnicity (from a Hungarian grandmother) :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F-QQPeUZvhBGJLX-5nMByhAsBQyNjPef/view?usp=sharing
===========

===========
6) L. Beckett (7 cM shared DNA on 1 segment)

She has an ancestor named Elizabeth Mountfort born probably around 1740 in Ditton Priors, Shropshire, England.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fQfCWo8kQiY_5b0xJh_mJ1I5meaGd128/view?usp=sharing

She has 45 % Eastern European and 0 % Balkan ethnicity:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qTe_LGglbiYCMvRTARSUuZbMJIppxmqU/view?usp=sharing
===========

===========
7) A. Krill (6 cM shared DNA on 1 segment)

She has an ancestor named Simon de Montfort born in 1208, who married Eleanor of England (also named Eleanor of Leicester).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gwF9wYaLgIWZMg1AimUvWlRElTIcf_HA/view?usp=sharing

Simon de Montfort
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_de_Montfort,_6th_Earl_of_Leicester

Eleanor of England
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_of_England,_Countess_of_Leicester

She has 43 % Eastern European and 0 % Balkan ethnicity:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eKcpWbSuTIvAS9N7PFKLWAAZQpQFEy6R/view?usp=sharing
==========

Regarding A. Krill, there is something interesting. From her tree it is easy to see that Simon de Montfort had a son named Guy de Montfort, who married Margherita Aldobrandeschi. They had a daughter named Anastasia de Montfort who married Roberto Orsini and had a son named Roberto Nola Orsini.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_de_Montfort,_Count_of_Nola
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margherita_Aldobrandeschi
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasia_di_Montfort
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orsini_family#The_second_southern_line

I already spoke in my previous message posted on 21 October about Guy de Montfort, who was made count of Nola by Charles I of Anjou (1227-1285), King of Sicily. I also told at that time that Gervase of Tilbury had previously received from William II (1153-1189) King of Sicily a villa in the town of Nola. And at that time I wondered if this was a coincidence or an indirect proof of the fact that Gervase of Tilbury was actually a member of the “de Montfort” family.

The autosomal match named A. Krill is a descendant of the Orsini family, but is not the only one match with that ancestry. I searched the name Orsini on my father’s matches list from MyHeritage and found a Frenchman named J. Flrt (actually Florit) who has Orsini ancestors.

==========
8 ) J. Flrt [Florit]  (14.8 cM shared DNA on 2 segments)

He doesn’t have Montfort ancestors in his tree, but he has ancestors named Orsini from Corsica. His most distant known ancestor is Giovan Pasquino Orsini, born in 1734 in Carticasi, Corsica.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iO9qWdlQwSekaVA0bbJORpNmjlQnvu4B/view?usp=sharing

He has only French and Italian ancestors, as can be seen from the tree (his ethnicity estimate is not publicly available). Florit is a French name from Languedoc (southern France).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florit

Tree:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CeOTgcgeVSZfJJyVv0WyZb00hS1HgJuv/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VkwC5qi6IB1tYnMzw3RU6mIb3Wsiunrr/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FlAU1-r4ILcP7CpHw0YgDhmm8cO-c7U4/view?usp=sharing
===========

Is there a link betwen the Orsini from Corsica and the Orsini from Nola? It turns out that yes.

In 1553 the French invaded Corsica, having also the support of some Corsican exiles. One of their commanders was Giordano Orsini, who was the son of Valerio Orsini (1504 - 1550), Duke of Ascoli, Count of Nola, Lord of Monterotondo and Forino. The title of “count of Nola” was hereditary, so Valerio Orsini is very probably the descendant of Romano Orsini, the first count of Nola from the Orsini line. The Orsini from Corsica are also probably descending from Romano Orsini and his wife Anastasia de Montfort.


-----------------
The Invasion of Corsica of 1553 occurred when French, Ottoman, and Corsican exile forces combined to capture the island of Corsica from the Republic of Genoa. The island had considerable strategic importance in the western Mediterranean, being at the heart of the Habsburg communication network and serving as a forced stopover for small boats sailing between Spain and Italy. The island had been administered since 1453 by the Genoese Bank of Saint George. The invasion of Corsica was accomplished for the benefit of France.
[...]
The French were also supported by Corsican exiles under Sampiero Corso and Giordano Orsini (Gallicized as "Jourdan des Ursins") in this adventure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Corsica_(1553)#Operations

{automatic translation from French}
Giordano Orsini, lord of Monterotondo, whose name is Frenchized as Jurdin Ursin or Jourdain des Ursins, was an Italian politician and condottiere [military leader] in the service of France in the 16th century, born in 1525, and died on September 26, 1564. Giordano Orsini is the son of Valerio Orsini (1504 - 1550), Duke of Ascoli, Count of Nola, Lord of Monterotondo and Forino.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Orsini_(1525-1564)

Jourdan des Ursins (1525–1564), or originally Giordano degli Orsini, was a Corsican general of the French army who participated with Sampiero Corso in the Invasion of Corsica (1553). After the invasion, parts of the island, especially Calvi and Bastia, were reclaimed by the Genoese, but many areas remained under French control. In 1555, Jourdan des Ursins replaced [Paul] de Thermes, and was named "Gouverneur et lieutenant général du roi dans l'île de Corse" [Governor and lieutnant-general of the [French] king on the island of Corsica]. He was in command of the French-controlled areas of the island until the 1559 Peace of Cateau Cambrésis when France formally returned Corsica to Genoa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jourdan_des_Ursins
---------------

So, it is possible that one of the two DNA segments shared by my father and the Frenchman with Orsini ancestors can be from the de Montfort family.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #37 : 21 Декабря 2023, 20:15:24 »
PART 2

I will present below the matches who have ancestors that are named D’Evreux. These can have have surnames derived from D'Evreux (like Devreux, Devereaux, etc). I will post links to their trees in PDF format that are stored on my Google Drive account. On Ancestry you cannot download the trees in their entirety, but only the closest ancestors and then for the more distant ancestors one branch at a time spread on multiple pages. I will post the tree with the line that goes to the D’Evreux ancestors, who are on the last page of the PDF file. There are situations when the user surname does not correspond with the paternal name from the tree. This is because the match is a female and the name from the tree is her maiden name. I also post a screenshot with the ethnicity estimate of the match provided by Ancestry.

But first, a fragment from the Wikipedia article about the Devereux family and the connection with the D’Evreux family.

--------------------
Devereux is a Norman surname found frequently in Ireland, Wales, England and around the English-speaking world. Saint Devereux Church in Hereford, United Kingdom is also named Saint Dubricius and is dedicated to the 6th century clergyman Saint Dubricius from Hereford, suggesting that the name is a Norman French rendering of Dubricius or the saint's Welsh name Dyfrig. In Ireland, the name is associated with Wexford, where the Cambro-Normans first invaded from Pembrokeshire, Wales in 1170. Devereux is more probably the Anglo-Norman form of D'Evreux / Devreux, meaning d'Évreux ("from Évreux", a town in Normandy, France).
[...]
The French variant is Devreux, which unlike Devereux is found within Normandy and France themselves. The similar names Devereaux and Deveraux are alternate spellings of the surname resulting from the various ways of pronouncing it[...].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devereux
---------------------

Since the article above speaks about Cambro-Normans, I will post a fragment from the Wikipedia article about them. They were Normans who settled in Wales (a part of western Britain) and from there invaded Ireland. Richard de Clare is presented as a Cambro-Norman who held lands both in England (Gloucestershire, Hertfordshire and Suffolk) and Wales (Pembrokeshire and Glamorgan). His name comes from the town of Clare in Suffolk, where he initially was granted land after the Norman conquest of England. In my opinion Gervase of Tilbury was born in Tilbury Juxta Clare, a toponym (place name) that means “Tilbury Next to Clare”, which is appropriate, since the distance between the two is only 6 km. So, there must be a connection (including a genetic one) between Gervase’s family and de Clare’s family. The name Barrett is also presented as a Cambro-Norman name and in my message from 30 October (page 2 of the thread) I mentioned the name Barrett as one of the surnames that appears in the trees of my father’s autosomal matches from GEDmatch who have ancestors from the county of Wiltshire, considered the place where Gervase’s family first settled in England before going to the county of Suffolk.

Screenshot of a map with Clare and Tilbury Juxta Clare:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CVCJvBHHZ-rbhjaz0ykd9jkkaxaHpapW/view?usp=sharing

---------------------
Cambro-Normans (Latin: Cambria; "Wales", Welsh: Normaniaid Cymreig; Norman: Nouormands Galles) were Normans who settled in southern Wales and the Welsh Marches after the Norman invasion of Wales, allied with their counterpart families who settled England following its conquest.
Some Irish historians prefer to use this term instead of Anglo-Norman because many of the knights who invaded Ireland in 1170, such as the FitzGeralds, originated and settled in modern-day Wales, following the Norman conquest.
[...]
Richard de Clare, better known as Strongbow, has been described by some Irish historians as a Cambro-Norman rather than an Anglo-Norman. The de Clares held lands in Pembrokeshire and Glamorgan, but their base was in Chepstow which, although is now a border settlement in Monmouthshire, Wales, was part of the English county of Herefordshire at the time. Strongbow also held lands in Gloucestershire, Hertfordshire and Suffolk. Herefordshire is in the Welsh Marches, of which Strongbow was a Marcher Lord. He is believed to have retreated to his English holdings when the Welsh began to attack his territory in Netherwent. Strongbow was living in England when he was contacted by Diarmaid MacMurrough, the king of Leinster.
[...]
Probably the best known Cambro-Norman surname, also called Hiberno-Norman, is Costello (see also Gilbert de Angulo). Other Cambro-Norman families include the Butlers, the Joyces and the Barretts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambro-Normans

The House of Clare was a prominent Anglo-Norman noble house that held at various times the earldoms of Pembroke, Hertford and Gloucester in England and Wales, as well as playing a prominent role in the Norman invasion of Ireland. They were descended from Richard Fitz Gilbert, Lord of Clare (1035-1090), a kinsman of William the Conqueror who accompanied him into England during the Norman conquest of England. As a reward for his service, Richard was given lands in Suffolk centred on the village of Clare. As a result, Richard and his descendants carried the name of 'de Clare' or 'of Clare'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Clare
----------------

==========
9) F. Josephine (7 cM shared DNA on 1 segment)

She has an ancestor named Charles Devereux born in 1740 Virginia, USA or Glamorganshire, Wales, Britain.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LOsDwt2DikFBib7Ov-BAL2VLqCSI0_7W/view?usp=sharing

F. Josephine has 26 % Eastern European and 0 % Balkan ethnicity:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JGSbmWdHPsMnY_p0DOhHzyI5XaUuojm7/view?usp=sharing
===========

Glamorganshire, where Charles Devereux was born, is a county in Wales where one of the big land owners in medieval times was the de Clare family.
-------------------
Glamorgan, or sometimes Glamorganshire (Welsh: Morgannwg or Sir Forgannwg), is one of the thirteen historic counties of Wales and a former administrative county of Wales. Originally an early medieval petty kingdom of varying boundaries known in Welsh as the Kingdom of Morgannwg (or Glywysing), which was then invaded and taken over by the Normans as the Lordship of Glamorgan.[...]
The lowlands of the Lordship of Glamorgan were manorialized, while much of the sparsely populated uplands were left under Welsh control until the late 13th century. Upon the death of William, Lord of Glamorgan, his extensive holdings were eventually granted to Gilbert de Clare in 1217. The subjugation of Glamorgan, begun by Fitzhamon, was finally completed by the powerful De Clare family, and in 1486 the kingdom was granted to Jasper Tudor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glamorgan#History
----------------

==========
10) D. Keating (8 cM shared DNA on 1 segment)

He has an ancestor named John Devereux born in 1802 in Parish Grange, County Tipperary, Ireland.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g8Nx46LxcCdbHKc65FNMb-1eejkdtC_-/view?usp=sharing

He has 0 % Eastern European and 0 % Balkan ethnicity:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ikRxwduh2gz--11Mepo0ok9k4ohS3LKI/view?usp=sharing
===========

John Devereux is very probably a descendant of Normans from Wales named D’Evreux who invaded Ireland and settled there.

-----------------
The Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland took place during the late 12th century, when Anglo-Normans gradually conquered and acquired large swathes of land from the Irish, over which the kings of England then claimed sovereignty, all allegedly sanctioned by the papal bull Laudabiliter.
[...]
In May 1169, Anglo-Norman mercenaries landed in Ireland at the request of Diarmait mac Murchada (Dermot MacMurragh), the deposed King of Leinster, who sought their help in regaining his kingship. [...] In 1170, there were further Norman landings, led by the Earl of Pembroke, Richard "Strongbow" de Clare. They seized the important Norse-Irish towns of Dublin and Waterford, and Strongbow married Diarmait's daughter Aoífe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_invasion_of_Ireland
---------------

The Devereux family is attested in Ireland from around 1200.

------------
A pedigree of the Devereux of Ballybarne (Kilrush), County Wexford, indicates their family descended from the ‘ancient family of Devereux of Balmagir in that county, who settled there in the reign of King John’ (1199-1216). That would confirm their arrival in Ireland at this time, and they became Stephen Devereux of Balmagir; Nicholas Devereux, steward of Meath; and John Devereux of Decies. Stephen Devereux married Isabel de Cantelupe and had children: William (who inherited his estates in Hereford), unknown daughter, Margaret Devereux (born ~1216 and married Alexander Redmond of The Hall, County Wexford), and Philip (who inherited his estates in Ireland, see below).[...] Stephen Devereux III of Balmagir was born about 1270 in Balmagir, Barony of Bargy (Modern Richfield), Ireland, the son of Stephen Devereux II and an unknown woman.[...] Nicholas Devereux Junior of Balmagir was born about 1299 in Balmagir, Barony of Bargy (Modern Richfield), Ireland. He was summoned among the Magnates of Ireland in 1320 as Nicholas Devereux of Balmagir. In 1336 he was appointed Keeper and Seneschall of the County, and the Earl of Pembroke’s lands.

http://devereaux.50megs.com/rich_text_11.html
-----------

In conclusion, there are autosomal matches that according to their trees are descending from the Montfort or D’Evreux families. However, because Ancestry does not offer any information about the position of the shared DNA segments, it is not possible at this time to determine if a specific DNA segment can be associated with these two families.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #38 : 28 Декабря 2023, 20:04:02 »
This is a four part message

PART 1

The only book authored by Gervase of Tilbury that survived to the present time is “Otia Imperialia” [Recreation for an Emperor]. It was written in Latin and the complete translation in English was done only in 2002 when it was published by Oxford University Press. You can see below the book for sale on Amazon, which also offers a free sample, including the index.

https://www.amazon.com/Gervaise-Tilbury-Imperialia-Recreation-Medieval/dp/0198202881

The book is expensive, but I managed to find a used copy on eBay for a good price. I bought it in the hope that it may contain clues about the identity of Gervase of Tilbury. As I said, in my opinion Gervase of Tilbury was the Norman count of Ragusa [Dubrovnik], about which we only know that he was named Gervase, he ruled Ragusa from 1186 to 1190 and he had a son named Martinussio, who founded a noble family in Ragusa wit the sam ename. Of course I didn’t read the whole book. I only read the introduction and the pages where names of people and places from Gervase’s time are mentioned.

Below are some fragments from the introduction of the book, written by the editors/translators.
----------------
Gervase of Tilbury pursued an international career as an administrator and jurist in the quarter-centuries either side of 1200.[...] As is often the case with medieval authors, most of what we know about Gervase's life comes from casual references in his own writings, though modern scholarship has been able to supplement this information with some documentary evidence for his career.[...] He presumably came from Tilbury in Essex, though the only evidence for this is his name. We know nothing of his family except that he was related to Patrick, earl of Salisbury, and so belonged to the Anglo-Norman elite. He enjoyed a close friendship with the earl's son Philip, based on a long comradeship in the schools and at the court of Henry II. His acquaintance with a number of insignicant places in England may date from his childhood, or from the time he spent at the English court (though the latter was more often than not in France). Gervase's date of birth is not known. [...]  it would seem probable that he was born in the 1150s or the early 1160s, though a later date has been suggested.[...] we know that he studied canon law at Bologna, where he acquired the title of magister and taught law for a time. He mentions as one of his pupils John Pignatelli, subsequently archdeacon of Naples, where Gervase visited him in 1190.[...] We have already noted that Gervase was at Venice in 1177, and this may well have fallen within his period of study and teaching in northern Italy.
[...]
we know that like many other contemporary literati he [Gervase] spent some time at the court of Henry II, a favourable environment for intellectuals and men of letters. He had a particularly close relationship with the Young King, Henry (III) (d. June 1183), for whom he composed a [book named] “Liber facetiarum”. Gervase mentions Ralph Niger as having been among his companions at the Young Henry's court.
[...]
we know that he was in the service of the king of Sicily at the end of the 1180s. Gervase was of sufficient standing to receive from William II the gift of a villa at Nola [near Naples, Italy], to enable him to escape from the stifling heat of Palermo in the summer. He took his friend Philip of Salisbury there, he tells us, in June of the year in which Acre was besieged. Acre was under siege in the Third Crusade from August 1189 to July 1191; since Philip most probably arrived with the English crusading army, the year is likely to have been 1190, though 1189 is also possible.

Gervase of Tilbury: Otia Imperialia; translation by S. E. Banks and J. W. Binns, published by Oxford University Press, 2002
(Introduction, pages xxv-xxvi)
-------------------

Now some facts from the book itself.

1) Gervase personally knew Ralph Niger.
He wrote at page 187 of Otia Imperialia the following text: “And so the learned man of our time, Master Ralph Niger, a fellow courtier of mine in the service of my lord the Young King, wrote [...]”.[/b] According to Wikipedia, the word “courtier” means “a person who attends the royal court of a monarch or other royalty”.

------------------
Ralph Niger, Latin “Radulphus Niger” or “Radulfus Niger”, anglicized Ralph the Black (c. 1140 – c. 1217), was an Anglo-French theologian and one of the English chroniclers. He was from Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, and became Archdeacon of Gloucester.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Niger
------------------

It is interesting to note that Bury St. Edmunds, the town where Ralph Niger was born, is close (30 km) to Tilbury Juxta Clare, where in my opinion Gervase of Tilbury was born.

2) Gervase personally knew Ralph of Coggeshall.
At the page xxvii in the introduction of the book it is written: we know that at some point he was in the service of William of the White Hands, archbishop of Rheims from 1176 until his death in 1202. Ralph of Coggeshall relates [in the book Chronicon Anglicanum] a story which he claims to have heard from Gervase himself.

------------------
Ralph of Coggeshall (died after 1227), English chronicler, was at first a monk and afterwards sixth abbot (1207–1218) of Coggeshall Abbey, an Essex foundation of the Cistercian order.  He is also known for his chronicles on the Third Crusade and of Gerard of Ridefort.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_of_Coggeshall
------------------

The town of Coggeshall, where Ralph was born, is also close (22 km) to Tilbury Juxta Clare.

3) Gervase personally knew Philip of Salisbury.
He wrote at page 579 of Otia Imperialia the following text: ”I was at Salerno, when I received an unexpected but welcome visitor: my true affection for him, strenghtened both by our kinship and by our long comradeship in the schools and at the court of my lord elder King Henry of England [...]. This man was Philip, the son of the late Patrick, noble earl of Salisbury.[...] My friend, though in two minds, by his better judgment allowed himself to be taken to the city of Nola, where I had a villa at that time by order of my lord the renowned King William of Sicily, to allow me to escape from the bustle and heat of Palermo in the summer.”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick,_1st_Earl_of_Salisbury
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL1.htm#_Toc57456189
https://www.geni.com/people/Patrick-1st-Earl-of-Salisbury/6000000013453705955
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/9ZCC-YZY/patrick-of-salisbury-1122-1168

So, Gervase had family ties (kinship) to Philip of Salisbury, but it is not known on which side, paternal (Patrick of Salisbury) or maternal (Ela Talvas). The town of Salisbury is in the county of Wiltshire, this is why it is presumed that a part of Gervase’s family was from Wiltshire. Some genealogical sites, like FamilySearch, Geni or Geneanet, assume that the real name of Patrick de Salisbury was d’Evreux, based on the fact that his great-grandfather was named “Walterus le Ewrus, comes de Rosmar”, and Ewrus could be an altered spelling of Evreux. Other sites, like WikiTree, Medieval Lands or Wikipedia, do not accept this assumption (explanation below).

-----------------
According to the Book of Lacock, he [Edward de Salisbury] was the son of Walter le Ewrus, Earl of Rosmar, a fictitious person, and brother of Gerold, Earl of Rosmar, born in Normandy before the Conquest [...]. The nickname “le Ewrus” (= l’heureux, or the fortunate) was converted into “de Evreux” by later writers, with the result that the family has been given the name of Devereux and has been tacked on to the Norman Counts of Evreux [...]. For the exposure of this mistake see Herald and Genealogist, vol. iv, p. 149. “Rosmar” is an error for Roumare (Normandy), which was not a comté [...]

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Salisbury-1615
------------------

4) Gervase could have visited Poland and Russia.
This is interesting, taking into account the fact that the I-FGC22052 haplogroup (a branch of I-FGC22045) is in my opinion originary from Krakow (today in southern Poland), where one of the Ragusan [Dubrovnik] noble families owned the saltworks. The documented owner, Jan (Giovanni) Junta Bona, lived in the 15th century, but we don’t know the century when the Ragusans bought the saltworks. Maybe it was in Gervase’s time.

----------------
Gervase himself had traveled widely, and at times supplements his sources with additional information drawn from his personal knowledge. For instance, his account of Poland and Russia suggests that he had either visited the region himself, or had talked to Polish travelers. And although he reproduces traditional references to the “island” of Scandinavia, he also displays non-traditional knowledge in his description of Norway as lying beyond Denmark, across the sea from Russia.

Gervase of Tilbury: Otia Imperialia, published by Oxford University Press, 2002
(Introduction, page xlv)
------------------

I made screenshots of a few pages from the book that contain the geographical information about the Balkans and Eastern Europe provided by Gervase. They are in the archive linked below. Google Drive scans all uploaded files, so there is no security risk in downloading and opening the archive or the files.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ND0cZX4gCsn4ZP1hIPnWNP3JibZEEY3G/view?usp=sharing

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #39 : 28 Декабря 2023, 20:07:31 »
PART 2

5) Gervase personally knew Alfonso II of Aragon. He had a “good memory” (good remembrance) of him.
He wrote at page 715 of Otia Imperialia the following text: ”Also in the city of Arles, when Alfonso of good memory, the renowned king of Aragon, was here a few years ago [...].”.
There are multiple references to Catalonia in Gervase’s book, probably originating from Alfonso II of Aragon, who also ruled the Principality of Catalonia. The references to Poland [including one about onagers, wild asses] could originate from the relatives of Richeza of Poland, the mother of Alfonso’s wife.

-------------------
Alfonso II (1–25 March 1157 – 25 April 1196), called the Chaste or the Troubadour, was the King of Aragon and, as Alfons I, the Count of Barcelona from 1164 until his death. The eldest son of Count Ramon Berenguer IV of Barcelona and Queen Petronilla of Aragon, he was the first King of Aragon who was also Count of Barcelona.[...] He was a noted poet of his time and a close friend of King Richard the Lionheart.[...] Alfonso married Sancha of Castile, daughter of king Alfonso VII of Castile.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfonso_II_of_Aragon

Sancha of Castile (21 September 1154/5 – 9 November 1208) was the only surviving child of King Alfonso VII of Castile by his second wife, Richeza of Poland. [...] A patroness of troubadours such as Giraud de Calanson and Peire Raymond [...].
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sancha_of_Castile,_Queen_of_Aragon

The Crown of Aragon eventually included the Kingdom of Aragon, the Principality of Catalonia (until the 12th century the County of Barcelona and others), the Kingdom of Valencia, the Kingdom of Majorca, the Kingdom of Sicily, Malta, the Kingdom of Naples and Kingdom of Sardinia. For brief periods the Crown of Aragon also controlled Montpellier, Provence, Corsica, and the twin Duchy of Athens and Neopatras in Latin Greece. [...] The Crown of Aragon originated in 1137, when the Kingdom of Aragon and the County of Barcelona (along with the County of Provence, Girona, Cerdanya, Osona and other territories) merged by dynastic union upon the marriage of Petronilla of Aragon and Raymond Berenguer IV of Barcelona; their individual titles combined in the person of their son Alfonso II of Aragon, who ascended to the throne in 1162.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon
-----------------------

The fact that both Alfonso II and his wife Sancha were patrons of trubadours (according to Wikipedia) may be a clue why Gervasius Naymeri from the Ragusan documents had named one of his sons Ballatia/Ballatie, a name that is derived from Balladier, another word in French that designates a Trubadour (in English it is spelled Balladeer). As I said multiple times, in my opinion Gervasius Naymeri and Gervasius de Rille were pseudonyms used by Gervase of Tilbury. See for more explanations my message from 4 October on page 2 of this thread.

https://thesaurus.plus/related/balladeer/troubadour

6) It is possible that Gervase’s French wife died around 1210.

He wrote at page 741 in Otia Imperialia: There was a knight in Catalonia in our times, of very high birth, dashing in warfare, and gracious in manners, whose name was Guiraut de Cabrera.[...] This knight was in the prime of his life, charming, lively, highly skilled on musical instruments, and madly desired by the ladies. In our palace (which was restored to our possession by right of our wife’s inheritance through your generosity and kindness, most excellent Prince, by a ruling of the imperial court), in the presence of Alfonso of pious memory, the late renowned king of Aragon, and of our mother-in-law [...], the knight of whom I have been speaking used to play the fiddle [violin] [...].

In the introduction of the book is the following commentary about the situation with the palace of Gervase’s wife from Arles.

----------------
At some point after his stay in Sicily he settled in Arles, where he is found in the entourage of Imbert d'Aiguières, archbishop of Arles 1191-1202, around the turn of the century. He appears in four archiepiscopal documents between 1198 and 1202. At some point he married a relative of Imbert's; the marriage brought him a palace, and established him in the highest ranks of Provençal society. Later the ownership of the palace was contested, and confirmed to Gervase by a decision of the imperial court. This has been taken to mean that his wife died before the presentation of the Otia Imperialia to Otto IV in 1214/15, but this need not necessarily have been the case: it is possible that Gervase and his wife were here fending off claims from his wife's relatives, especially as he could not normally have expected to inherit from his wife; and it is also conceivable that Gervase might have thought of a local Provençal court as acting under delegated imperial authority.

Gervase of Tilbury: Otia Imperialia, published by Oxford University Press, 2002
(Introduction, page xxix)
---------------

About the trubadours there are two footnotes in the book. The first is about the Catalan knight named by Gervase as Guiraut de Cabrera.

---------------
a) Probably the famous Guiraut or Guerau Ponç de Cabrera, one of the first Catalan troubadours known to us by name. [...] If Guiraut died, as is thought, in 1170, the events descrbed here probably took place in 1167, when Alfonso II was in Arles; Gervase presumably heard the story from his wife’s family.
b) [King of Aragon] Alfonso’s itinerant court was often to be found in Provence. Provençal influence is evident in the flowering of Catalan literature in his time; indeed Alfonso himself performed as a troubadour.

Gervase of Tilbury: Otia Imperialia, published by Oxford University Press, 2002
(pages 738-740)
-------------

And speaking about Alfonso II, King of Aragon, here may be a clue why Gervase chose not to use his real surname, de Montfort, and instead used cryptic pseudonyms like de Tilbury, Naymeri and de Rille. Gervase was a friend of Alfonso II (1157-1196), so very probably he also knew the king’s son and succesor, Peter II of Aragon (1178-1213), who would later be killed in a battle with Simon de Montfort’s crusaders.

-------------------------
The Crown of Aragon was widespread in the area that is now southwestern France, but which at that time was under the control of vassal local princes, such as the Counts of Toulouse. The Cathars or Albigenses rejected the authority and the teachings of the Catholic Church. Innocent called upon Philip II of France to suppress the Albigenses. Under the leadership of Simon of Montfort a campaign was launched. The Albigensian Crusade, begun in 1209, led to the slaughter of approximately 20,000 men, women and children, Cathar and Catholic alike. Over the course of twenty years military campaigns essentially destroyed the previously flourishing civilization of Occitania and by 1229 brought the region firmly under the control of the King of France, and the Capetian dynasty from the north of France.

Peter [II of Aragon] returned from Las Navas in autumn 1212 to find that Simon de Montfort had conquered Toulouse, exiling Count Raymond VI of Toulouse, who was Peter's brother-in-law and vassal. Peter crossed the Pyrenees and arrived at Muret in September 1213 to confront Montfort's army. He was accompanied by Raymond of Toulouse, who tried to persuade Peter to avoid battle and instead starve out Montfort's forces. This suggestion was rejected.

The Battle of Muret began on 12 September 1213. The Aragonese forces were disorganized and disintegrated under the assault of Montfort's squadrons. Peter himself was caught in the thick of fighting, and died as a result of a courageous last stand. He was thrown to the ground and killed. The Aragonese forces broke in panic when their king was slain and Montfort's crusaders won a crushing victory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_II_of_Aragon
-------------------------

It is interesting that Gervase wrote harshly in Otia Imperialia about the Albigensians (Cathars) and about Raymond VI, the count of Toulouse who supported them, but didn’t say anything about Simon de Montfort or Peter II of Aragon, both involved in major roles in the Albigensian crusade.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #40 : 28 Декабря 2023, 20:13:28 »
PART 3

7) Gervase personally knew Richard de Luci. He had a “good memory” (good remembrance) of him.
He wrote at page 749 of Otia Imperialia the following text: ”Here is an example: in the kingdom of England, in the diocese of London and the county of Essex, there is a castle called Ongar, built by Richard de Luci of good memory, at one time justiciar in England for my lord your grandfather [Henry II], the renowned king of the English.”.

------------------------
Richard de Luci (or Lucy; 1089 – 14 July 1179) was first noted as High Sheriff of Essex, after which he was made Chief Justiciar of England.[...] In 1153–4 de Luci was granted Chipping Ongar, Essex by William, son of King Stephen and his wife, Maud of Boulogne. He may have built the motte and bailey Ongar Castle, although it is also attributed to Eustace II Count of Boulogne (c1015 – c1087). Richard de Luci was appointed Sheriff of both Essex and Hertfordshire for 1156.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_de_Luci

de Lucy or de Luci (alternate spellings: Lucey, Lucie, Luce, Luci) is the surname of an old Norman noble family originating from Lucé in Normandy, one of the great baronial Anglo-Norman families which became rooted in England after the Norman conquest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lucy
--------------------------

The de Luci family had ties to the Montfort family, this being proven by the fact that Simon V de Montfort-l’Amaury donated a castle in France to Guy de Luci, one of his followers during the Albigensian crusade. Later there was also Geoffrey de Lucy, a follower of Simon VI de Montfort (son of Simon V). We can see that the affiliation of de Luci family with the de Montfort family passed across generations. A member of the de Clare family was also a follower. I spoke about the de Clare family in my previous message from 21 December.

----------------------------
Mai 1211. Donation du château de Puy-Laurenz en Albigeois, faite par Simon [V] de Montfort à Gui de Luci. — P. de Y. de Cernay, с 53. « Castrum Podii-Laurentii, distans tribus leucis a Yauro, datur Guidoni de Lucio. »
https://www.persee.fr/doc/bec_0373-6237_1873_num_34_1_446499

Guy de Lucy joined the Albigensian crusade (1209-1229) having a close connection to the crusade's leader Simon [V] de Montfort. He came from the Orléanais and in June 1211 received the fief of Puylaurens near Toulouse.
https://www.lucey.net/webpage56.htm

It was among the middling and lesser baronage, rather than the earls, that Montfort found his strongest body of lay supporters: one that came together and emerged fully only with its leader's return to England in 1263, and can be identified through the lists of those who appealed for Louis IX's arbitration in 1263, fought at Northampton and Lewes in 1264, were summoned to the Montfortian parliament of 1265, and fought again at Evesham. As the chronicler Thomas Wykes noted, most of these baronial Montfortians were young men. Of the seven whom he names in 1263—Henry of Hastings, John fitz John, John de Vescy, Geoffrey de Lucy, Robert de Vieuxpont, and William de Munchensi, in addition to Nicholas of Seagrave—at least five were under thirty. Particularly conspicuous were the Montfortian sons of the earls active in 1258. Gilbert de Clare, seventh earl of Gloucester, who had succeeded his father in 1262, came over to Montfort in 1264, jointly commanded a division of his army at Lewes, and was one of the triumvirate established in power after the battle. Humphrey (V) de Bohun, son of the earl of Hereford, was one of the baronial sponsors of Louis IX's arbitration, a member of the council of nine in 1264, and a combatant at Evesham, dying in captivity after the battle. Robert de Vere, fifth earl of Oxford, son of a royalist father whose title he inherited in 1264, was knighted by Montfort before Lewes and remained a faithful member of the subsequent Montfortian regime.
https://doi.org/10.1093/ref:odnb/95590
-------------------------

There is also an interesting, although indirect, connection of the de Lucy family with the name Gervase.

--------------------------
That the de Lucy family was of a landed class [land owners] is demonstrable by the fact Richard and his mother Aveline appear in two charters of 1131, in which [the King] Henry I notified that he had “...given to S[aint]s Gervase and Protase of Sees [Dioceses], for the use of the bishop, the fee of Laleu [Orne] which William Goth held and the King bought from his niece Aveline and her son Richard de Lucy (Luceio) and they delivered to Robert Earl of Gloucester”.

A Rose by Any Other Name: Another daughter of Richard de Lucy
https://fmg.ac/publications/journal/vol-6/280-fnd6-05
-------------------------

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #41 : 28 Декабря 2023, 20:17:38 »
PART 4

8 ) In the article quoted above I found an interesting surname, Mounteny (also spelled Munteney, Munteni/Monteni, Mounteney, Mountney, etc.), linked to the de Lucy family. It may be a coincidence, but it’s worth mentioning. As an aside, the plural of the Rumanian name Munteanu is Munteni. The name Munteanu means "mountain man”, "man from the mountain" in the Rumanian language.

----------------------
The proposition of this article is that Richard de Lucy, Chief Justice of Henry II, had another daughter named Rose whose existence has fallen into obscurity. She was wife first of William de Mounteny, progenitor of the Mounteny family of Mountnessing, Essex, and secondly of Michael Capra. Rose was also mother of Muriel de Mounteny, who with her husband, Jordan de Bricett, was patron of St Mary’s nunnery in Clerkenwell, London.
[...]
The Quo Warranto inquisition for Norfolk, which was held around the early 1270s, records that Henry I granted Richard de Lucy the whole manor of Diss and half the Hundred and the market and other liberties, for the service of 40d. towards the upkeep of Norwich castle. Afterwards, Richard de Lucy gave the ancestor of Robert de Mounteny a third of the manor with a third of the market and a third part of the half Hundred in free marriage with Rose his daughter, “…dns Rex H p’mus feof’ dnm Ric’ de Lucy cu toto man’io de Disce cu di hundred’ & cum foro & cu aliis liber’ ad Maniu & hundr’…Et p’ea dns Ric’ dedit cuid ancessor’ dni Rob. de Munteney qui nc tenet t’ciam pte pdci manii cu iii pte fori & tcia pte hundr’ in liber’ maritag’ cum Rosya fil’ sua.”
[...]
The Norwich Cathedral Priory cartulary contains a charter dated sometime between 1146 and 1174, by Robert de Mounteny, who gave his mill at Little Plumstead to the priory for the souls of his father, William, and mother, Rose, “…pro salute mea et uxoris mee et omnium parentum et amicorum meum, et nominatum pro anima patris mei Willelmi de Mounteney et Raiesie matris mee…”
[...]
The Robert of this charter can only be the same Robert de “Munteni”, whose five knights’ fees were held of Richard de Lucy according to the latter’s Carta in 1166. These comprised a knight’s fee in Newton in the Hundred of Stowe, Suffolk, a knight’s fee in Walcote a part of Diss, a knight’s fee in Sprowston, and two knights’ fees in Tacolneston, Norfolk, “Robertus de Monteni, feoda v militum, scilicet, in Neutone, quae est membrum de Stowa, feodum j militis. Et Walcote, quae est membrum de Dice feodum j militis. Et in Sprectone, feodum j militis. Et in Tacolvestone, feoda ij militum.”

A Rose by Any Other Name: Another daughter of Richard de Lucy
https://fmg.ac/publications/journal/vol-6/280-fnd6-05
------------------------

The Mounteny/Mounteney family from England was originary from the village of Montigny in Calvados, Normandy, so it was a Norman family settled in England.

------------------------
Mounteney : or Montigny, from a place of that name near Falaise, in Normandy. "Roger de Montigny gave lands to St. Vigor's, Cerisy, temp. William I. (Mon. i. 961): and in Henry I.'s reign William de Montigny married a daughter and co-heir of Jordan Briset, a great baron of Essex (Mon. ii. 505)."—The Norman People. Sir Arnold Mounteney witnesses John Fitz Matthew.
[...]
The family were of higher antiquity and no less importance, in the Eastern Counties, where they had originally settled. Robert de Mounteney, of Norfolk, held three fees in 1161 from Richard de Lucy, whose daughter Dionysia he had married [...]. In Essex they were seated at Ging-Mounteney, or Mountney's-ing (from Ing, a Saxon word signifying meadow or pasture, vulgarly Munnassing) from about the time of Stephen, when Robert de Mounteney witnessed the foundation charter of Thobie Priory.
https://www.1066.co.nz/Mosaic%20DVD/library/Battle%20Roll/Mounteney.html
------------------------

The Mounteny/Mounteney family had land properties in Norfolk and Essex:

-------------------------
The ancient family of De Mounteney were lords of this manor [Beeston, Norfolk] in the reign of Henry II. [1154-89] when Robert de Mounteney was found to hold one fee here, &c. of the old feoffment, and Sir Arnold de Mounteney held here in Catton, &c. the same in King Henry the Third's time [1216-72], of Robert Lord Fitz Walter.
[...]
Robert de Mounteney held, in the reign of Henry II [1154-89] this lordship of Sir Richard de Lucy, lord chief justice of England: it came to that family by the grant of King Henry I. to Sir Richard, and to Sir Arnold de Mounteney, on the marriage of Dionysia, 4th daughter and coheir of that knight; this Robert was probably son of Sir William de Mounteney, who married Lecia, eldest daughter and coheir of Jordan Briset, a baron, and Muriel his wife, founders of the priory of St. John of Jerusalem, near Smithfield, London, in 1100.
[...]
In 1306, Sir Arnold de Mounteney was lord, and patron of the priory of Ging Mounteney in Essex.
[...]
The name of this parish [Mountnessing = Mountney’s + ing] is formed of that of the ancient family of the Mountneys, (formerly lords of the capital manor here), with the addition of the Saxon word ing, meaning meadow. It bore the name of Ginge Mounteney in the time of Edward the Third.

https://soc.genealogy.medieval.narkive.com/tagSvE1x/mounteney-family-norfolk-essex-yorkshire
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/kM3hAwY8LvY/m/IgFblaZYNfAJ?pli=1
---------------------------

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #42 : 05 Января 2024, 20:56:46 »
This is a five part message.

PART 1

Gervasius Naymeri/Mayneri was not the only one with that surname in the Ragusan [Dubrovnik] documents compiled in the collection named “Codex Diplomaticus Regni Croatiae, Dalmatiae et Slavoniae”. I looked at the other persons with the same surname to see if I could find clues about the identity of Gervasius/Gervase.

Codex Diplomaticus vol. 3
There is a Luccari/Lucarius Naimeri mentioned in two Ragusan documents from 1222, as a judge and as a witness. There is no information about the Naimeri family in these two documents.

Codex Diplomaticus vol. 6 (p. 459-461, 462-463, 465-466)
There are three wills (testaments) of Dobra Guerero, where the name Maynero is mentioned. I demonstrated in a previous message that the Naymeri family name was later changed to Mayneri/Maynero, probably because the latter is the one used in Italian, one of the official languages of Ragusa. Both the Croatian historians who put together the collection of documents, as well as the historian Konstantin Jireček said the same thing, that Mayneri is a variant of Naymeri and the name was translated in Serbo-Croatian as Majnerević. Only one will of Dobra Guerero is presented below, because the other two contain the same genealogical information.

---------------
1284, 18 januara. U Dubrovniku.
Testamenat  Dobre Guerero o gotovini od tri stotina perpera.
Die XVIII, ianuarii, Ragusii etc. Ego quidem Dobra filia condam [quondam] Domagne de Guerero sana mente et bona memoria mea facio testamentum de illis trecentis yperperis, qui debent mihi dari post mortem matris mee [...] De quibus in primis uolo, quod dentur sorori mee Drazi yperperi triginta [...], consobrinabus meis Boni et Desaze filiabus Geruasii de Maynero yperperi tres pro qualibet.

{automatic translation}
1284, 18 January. In Dubrovnik [Ragusa].
Will of Dobra Guerero about cash of three hundred hyperpers [a Byzantine coin].
On the 18th of January, in Ragusa. I, indeed, Dobra, the daughter of the late Domagne de Guerero, with my sound mind and good memory, make a testament of those three hundred hyperpers, which were given to me after the death of my mother [...]. First of all, I want that thirty hyperpers be given to my sister Draza [...], to my cousins Bona and Desaza [Desača], the daughters of Geruasius/Gervasius de Maynero, I gave three [hyperpers] each.

Codex Diplomaticus Regni Croatiae, Dalmatiae et Slavoniae, vol. 6
(page 462)
----------------

So, in these documents appears the information that two women named Desaza [Desača] and Bona were the daughters of Geruasius de Maynero and first cousins of Dobra Guerero. Since they didn’t have the same surname, that means their mothers were sisters. The mother of Dobra Guerero was named Francha and she also had a sister named Stana (p. 465).

In another document is the information that the mother of Bona and Desača was named Slaua [Slava]. And very interesting, the author of that document, had a sister named “Englesa”, mentioned exactly after Geruasius [Maynero]. Maybe it’s a coincidence, maybe not. In Italian the word "English" is translated as "Inglese" (masculine form) or "Inglesa" (feminine form).


--------------------
1284, 14. oktobra. U Dubrovniku.
Testamenat Martola Crijevića
[...] item filiabus Slaue et Geruasii yperperos duos pro qualibet, item sorori mee Englese yperperos triginta, item Dese sorori mee yperperos quadraginta, item Desislaue de Xumagna yperperos quinque.

{automatic translation}
1284, October 14. In Dubrovnik.
Testament of Martol Crijević
[...] also to the daughters of Slaua [Slava] and Geruasius two hyperpers each, likewise to my sister Englesa thirty hyperpers, likewise to my sister Desa [Desača] 40 hyperpers, likewise to Desislaua de Xumagna five hyperpers

Codex Diplomaticus Regni Croatiae, Dalmatiae et Slavoniae, vol. 6
(page 501)
--------------------

There is also the will of Petri de Benessa where he speaks about the two daughters of Geruasii de Naymero. So, here the name is Naymero, whereas in the other wills presented above it is Maynero. This proves that Geruasis de Naymero and Geruasis de Maynero were the same person.

--------------------
Testamentum Petri de Benessa
Anne, fiie Stane yperperos duos. Duabus filiabus Geruasii de Naymero yperperos duos. [...] Item de uendicione supra dicte domus quando fuerit vendita, uolo quod dentur Englese yperperi decem.

{automatic translation}
Will of Petri de Benessa
To Anne, daughter of Stana two hyperpers. To the two daughters of Geruasius of Naymero two hyperpers. [...] Also, concerning the sale of the aforesaid house, when it is sold, I want 10 hyperpers to be given to Englesa.

Josip Lučić - Spisi Dubrovačke Kancelarije - Knjiga [Book] 2
(page 379)
https://www.scribd.com/doc/66069157/Josip-Lucic-Spisi-Dubrovacke-Kancelarije-Knjiga-2
--------------------

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #43 : 05 Января 2024, 20:57:49 »
PART 2

So, the Maynero and Guerero families from Ragusa were related. That means Geruasio Maynero and Domagne Guerero knew each other. But can we find a document where they appear together? It turns out that there may be such a document.

There is a book about the Italo-Norman aristocracy that contains the following fragment:

------------------
Likewise, Count Roger of Tricarico and Count William of Caserta ceded, in June 1188, all the land in Montoro which Palmerius of Auriconta held at the time of his death to Alexander of Alife, son of the late John. The charter does not state where the transaction was conducted, but this must have been done also in Montoro, not only because his brother Count William subscribed this concession, but also because both charters were sanctioned by the same three judges: Gervase, Guerrasius, and William. These must have been the judges of Montoro; additionally, judges Gervase and William were described in the second document as the counts’ loyal men (noster fideles). This case illustrates yet another instance of the judicial role that a count exercised within his own county, and the administrative control that his position gave him over the local sphere of justice; although it did not matter how powerful the noblemen were, the judges were the authority who ultimately delivered the sentences. The fact that these two judges [Gervase and William] of Montoro were men close to the counts of Caserta and Tricarico, and that the latter called the castrum of Montoro his, as he was conducting business there, forces us to remember the controversy which, according to Pseudo-Falcandus, Count Robert of Caserta had brought to the Sicilian royal court against his cousin William of San Severino. [...] Along with these charters from Cava, another document from the same abbey, dated March 1194, recorded that the aforesaid Judge Guerrasius sanctioned the sale of four plots of land to Alexander of Alife, and that this land had been previously donated by Count William of Caserta and Count James of Tricarico – Count Roger’s successor. Furthermore, a May 1179 papal document referred to a church of St. Thomas, in the territory of Montoro, which the count of Caserta built. This must have antagonised Lord William of San Severino, but after 1169 and throughout William II’s reign, Count Robert of Caserta as one of the top functionaries of the royal court on the mainland was one of the most influential nobles in the kingdom, and as such he must have been able to leverage his old claim over the ancestral San Severino dominions.

Hervin Fernàndez Aceves
County and Nobility in Norman Italy (1130-1189)
Ph.D thesis published by the University of Leeds in 2017
(pages 230-231)
https://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/19719/1/County-and-Nobility-in-Norman-Italy.pdf
--------------------

There is an article on the internet which presents another document with the trio of judges Gervase, Guerrasius, and William (it was found by my sister).

The article is named “Il nobile giudice Guerrisi del 1186” [The noble judge Guerrisi from 1186] and was written by a contemporary descendant of that judge. The document was taken from a book named “Purdgavine”, written by Antonio Graziani using documents from the Cava abbey and published in 1883.

---------------------
The Territorial abbey of La Trinità della Cava (Latin: Abbatia Territorialis Sanctissimae Trinitatis Cavensis), commonly known as Badia di Cava, is a Benedictine territorial abbey located near Cava de' Tirreni, in the province of Salerno, southern Italy. [...] The monastery contains the Biblioteca statale del Monumento Nazionale Badia di Cava with its rich archives of public and private documents, which date back to the 8th century [...].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Trinit%C3%A0_della_Cava
---------------------

This is the document:

-----------------
{summary of the document translated automatically from Italian}
1187, September
The Count of Tricarico Ruggiero, being in the castle of Montoro, both on his part and that of his brother Guglielmo [William] di Caserta, present at the act, together with his brother Roberto di Lauria, grants to the abbot of Cava Benincasa, which for the needs concerning men of Solofra and Montoro of the lands of the monastery, refer to the Curia of the monastery in Montoro where they will be able to meet and where there will be men sent by the Abbot who will also represent the Tricarico; for the needs of the men who hold the lands of the monastery with other contracts, reference should be made to Montoro if the lands are from Montoro and in the curia of Solofra, but before the judges of Serino, if the lands are from Solofra. If there is a crime serious enough to require his presence, he places the prosecutor Alessandro as representative. The notary Falcone writes before the judges Gervasio, Guerrasi and Guglielmo di Montoro.

{fragment from the original document in Latin}
Ex quoniam ob facta plurima saepissime quod geritur ab humana memoria labitur, precibus igitur Alexandri Procuratoris rerum ejusdem Monasterii, quas ex parte ipsius Domni Abbatis studiose nobis porrexit, ut hoc perpetuo legentibus pateat, et in futuro memoriae commendetur, hanc nostram concessionem perpetuo valituram et a nostris haeredibus et successoribus summa authoritate tenendam, taliter tibi Falconi Notario in scriptis redigere iussimus. Inter virgulos legitur, petitioni, et ad majorem huius cartulae firmitatem nobis Gervasio et Guerrasio et Guilielmo iudicibus nostris montorii eam corroborare praecepimus. X Rogeriuis comes Tricarici. X Guilielmus comes Casertae. X Robbertus de Lauro. X Ego Gervasius iudex qui supra. X Ego qui supra Guerrasius Iudex.  X Ego qui supra Guilielmus iudex. In pergamena, in Arm. II, O, N.

article:
https://vincenzoguerrisi.wordpress.com/2017/09/26/il-nobile-giudice-guerrisi-del-1187/
another article with a photo of the original page that presents the document
https://vincenzoguerrisi.wordpress.com/2017/05/21/guerrisi/
http://www.storiadelmondo.com/rso/2/demaio.solofranormanna.pdf
--------------------

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #44 : 05 Января 2024, 20:59:00 »
PART 3

So, there were two judges, Gervasio and Guerrasius, who in 1187 and 1188 signed legal documents concerning land transactions in Montoro, Campania, Italy. These lands belonged to two Norman owners, count Roger of Tricarico and count William of Caserta, who were brothers. One of the judges, Gervasio, was considered to be the “loyal man” of both Norman counts.

Roger of Tricarico and count William of Caserta were the sons of Robert of Caserta (also named Robert de Lauro), who was considered the “Viceroy” [Governor] of southern Italy in the name of King William II of Sicily. Robert of Caserta was a “vassal” [subordinate] of William II of Sicily, and after his death, his sons, which inherited the land properties, became also vassals of the king. We know that Gervase of Tilbury, a judge by profession, was in the service of William II of Sicily between 1186-1190. Since the land transactions took place in 1187-1188, we may presume that the judge Gervasio who signed the documents, was actually Gervase of Tilbury, probably sent by William II of Sicily to do it.


--------------------
Robert of Lauro (died 1183) was the Count of Caserta, a powerful nobleman and administrator in the Kingdom of Sicily, "effectively the king's [William II of Sicily] viceroy on the mainland" between 1171 and his death. He was a close colleague of Count Tancred of Lecce, the future king. His influence helped his cousin Roger become Archbishop of Benevento (1179–1225).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_of_Caserta

{automatic translation from French}
Robert of Lauro or Robert of Caserta (in Italian: Roberto di Lauro or Roberto di Caserta; d. August 31, 1183) was an Italian-Norman baron of the Kingdom of Sicily, Count of Caserta. Robert de Lauro is the great-grandson of Turgis de Rota (d. around 1080), a Norman who arrived in southern Italy around 1045. His father was Robert, lord of Lauro, and his mother a certain Saracena ("Sarrasine", perhaps a nickname). He was a wealthy landowner ruling over a vast estate located in the south of the principality of Capua. He is the head of the San Severino family, one of the branches of the Filangieri family.
[...]
In 1162, during the counter-offensive led by King William I of Sicily against the rebel barons of southern Italy, he obtained command of an army composed of galeati (soldiers wearing a helm called galea). In particular, he succeeded in seizing a fortress located at Monte Arcano (in present-day Molise) and capturing the wife and son of Richard d'Aquila, Count of Fondi, one of the rebel leaders. When the revolt was brought under control, the king rewarded him by giving him lands confiscated from a cousin condemned to exile, William of Sanseverino; Robert de Lauro notably receives San Severino and Montoro ( Montoro Inferiore and/or Montoro Superiore ). [...]In 1176, Robert de Lauro was one of [King] William II's envoys responsible for welcoming in Saint-Gilles, in the south of France, Princess Joan of England, who was to marry the King of Sicily [William II]. A fleet of twenty-five galleys escorted the future queen to Naples, then, by land, the escort reached Palermo.
[...]
From his wife Agnès (d. before August/September 1178), he has at least three sons:
Richard (d. 1182);
Roger, Count of Tricarico, in the region of Matera, also owning Serino, Solofra and half of Montoro;
William (d. 1199 or early 1200s), who owned the county of Caserta, Lauro, Striano and half of Montoro.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_de_Lauro
https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/roberto-di-lauro_(Dizionario-Biografico)/
---------------

Were the two judges Gervasio and Guerrasius, mentioned in Montoro, southern Italy, the same as Gervasio Naymeri and Domagne de Guerero mentioned in Ragusa [Dubrovnik] ? It is possible, because Gervasio Naymeri from Ragusa is also mentioned in some documents as being a judge. Also, Guerrasius is not the same as Guerero, but it should be noted that the documents form Montoro and from Ragusa were written decades apart, and the name could have been slightly changed. Also in the Ragusan documents minor changes in how the surnames were written were frequent.

The name Guerrero is considered by Ancestry to be of Spanish, Portuguese, or Italian origin.

-----------------
Spanish, Portuguese and Italian: nickname for an aggressive person or for a soldier from an agent derivative of guerra ‘war’.
https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=guerrero
---------------

The first name Domagne could have come from Domagné, a commune in France, close to Rennes and also close to Montfort-sur-Meu, about which I spoke in a previous message. See screenshot.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ED-eNa6TTYUuWh3PGx3oqdZFkAUgDsDZ/view?usp=sharing
-------------------
Domagné [...] is a commune in the Ille-et-Vilaine department in Brittany in northwestern France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domagn%C3%A9
----------------

 

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