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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #225 : 26 Декабря 2025, 19:42:17 »
PART 2

As a speculation, let's presume that a man named Cicic came from Transylvania. Since Transylvania was part of Austria-Hungary before 1918, and was ruled by Hungary, the documents about the people living there were written in Hungarian. A part of these documents is also available online. In the Hungarian language, the Rumanian name Cicic is written as Csicsik. You can see below the surname page on FamilySearch.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/discovery/results/?tab=tree&page=1&results=12&q.surname=csicsik

It is interesting that most are from Trebišov, a town in Slovakia, which in the time of Austria-Hungary had a mixed population, half Slovakian and half Hungarian.

=================
Trebišov is a small industrial town in the easternmost part of Slovakia, with a population of around 25,000.
[...]
The first written reference to the [Trebišov] castle stems from 1254, during the reign of Béla IV of Hungary. This castle of Parič (Párics) stood at the border of the village. The village originally was established to serve the castle. The castle was built by the Terebesi family from the Kaplon clan. Charles I of Hungary conquered the castle in 1317 during the fight with Peter, son of Petenye and granted the land as gift to Philip Drugeth, the ispán of Szepes County, but then returned to royal ownership in 1342, to the Zemplén County. After 1387 the castle was given by Sigismund of Luxemburg to Peter Perényi. Mathias Corvinus has overtaken the castle in 1483 from Stephen Perényi, who became a "robber knight", after a siege and given the castle to the son of the defeated lord. As the Ottomans were approaching in 1536, the castle was further reinforced in 1541. The Drugeth family took over the castle by marriage in 1567, but in 1619, Gabriel Bethlen besieged and occupied it.[...] The castle was once again reinforced, and Austrian forces occupied it in 1675. In 1682, Emeric Thököly captured it and then fled from continuous Austrian attacks, so they blew the castle up, since then it has been in ruins. In 1692 Leopold I gave his rights on the property by a donation to Theresia Keglevich. From her descendants it came into the possession of the Csáky family [in 1766]. In 1786, the Csáky family was using the ruins to build another castle in the city. This castle was moved to the Andrássy family by marriage in 1838 and rebuilt in Neo Renaissance style.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebi%C5%A1ov
=================

The Trebišov castle was owned from 1692 to 1766 by the Keglevich family, which also owned land in various parts of Croatia, including Lika. It is likely that men from Lika were brought to Trebišov in order to work there. Maybe some of them had the I-FGC22061 haplogroup.

=================
The House of Keglević or Keglevich was a Croatian noble family originally from Northern Dalmatia, whose members were prominent public citizens and military officers.
[...]
The first known ancestor was Peter de genere Percal, a castle lord, who was mentioned in a supreme court verdict by Mladen II Šubić in Northern Dalmatia (Pozrmanje) about the right to judge a case concerning grazing rights in a village in the year 1322. [...] After 1487 their estates expanded into the županijas of Knin, Nebljuh, Gacka, and Lika, as well as the city of Bužim in 1495. After the Ottoman intrusion, the family and its branches migrated to the županija of Zagreb, Varaždin, Slavonia region, and the Kingdom of Hungary (where in the 17th century the Hungarian branch of the family was founded). In the 16th century they had so many estates in Međimurje that they were obligated by the Croatian Sabor in 1542 to return the region to Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor, but Ferdinand I returned the most of it five years later. Because of it, they had  a half century conflict with the Székely von Kövend noble family for Krapina and Kostel estates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keglevi%C4%87_family
==============

I searched the Csicsik surname in the Rumanian archives and found two instances where it appears.

1) There is a Csicsik Janos mentioned in 1915 in Satu Mare, a city which is the capital of Satu Mare County, located in north-western Transylvania close to the border with Hungary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satu_Mare

2) There is a Briszk János (Csicsik) mentioned in 1904 in Valcău de Sus (named Oláh Valkó in Austria-Hungary). This is a village in Sălaj County, also located in north-western Transylvania. János' father was named Briszk Tivadar (Csicsik). I don't know why Csicsik was put in brackets, it was probably a nickname, which the son inherited from his father.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YmYo-NCYV9QkDcsMTOva3h-uFlK1t2im/view?usp=sharing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valc%C4%83u_de_Jos

The surname Briszk (pronounced like Brisk in English) is interesting, because a similar surname is found in the 1601-1680 censuses from the Făgăraș region. Actually the surname is written in the documents with a variety of forms (Briskin, Briszkin, Birszkin, Briczikin, Briskini, Briszke, etc.), which means it was difficult to write correctly for a Hungarian, because it probably contained Rumanian sounds which are not present in Hungarian, like Î (close central unrounded vowel, pronounced like the Russian Ы). Also, judging from their first names, the men with these surnames were Rumanians, but the "in" termination of their surname is Slavic, not Rumanian.

Page with Briskin men from the Făgăraș census (SZ in pronounced S in Hungarian) :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/198ZmJKQ9v4IKAf8E-aBPUzNGyu5d35b_/view?usp=sharing

Surprisingly, there is a connection with the Western Balkans, more specifically with the Gottschee and Lower Carniola regions in Slovenia, where a similar surname (Briški) exists.

==================
Briski
1) Slovenian and Croatian (Briški): habitational name for someone from a village named Briga in Lower Carniola, Slovenia. See also 2 below, compare Briske 3.
2) German: adaptation of the Slovenian surname Briški (see 1 above) used by German-speaking Gottscheers i.e. Gottschee Germans originating from the Kočevsko [Gottschee] region in Lower Carniola, Slovenia (see Kocevar).
3) Americanized form of Polish Brzeski and possibly also Brzyski. Compare Briske 2.  Origin:  Eastern Europe

Briske
1) Americanized form of German Brüske (see Brueske).
2) Germanized or Americanized form of Polish Brzeski and possibly also Brzyski.
3) Americanized form of Slovenian and Croatian Briški (see Briski 1). Compare Briskey 3 Briski 3 and Brisky 3.

https://en.geneanet.org/surnames/BRISKI
==================

In Gottschee the name was also written Brischke.
https://www.germangenealogygroup.com/xtra/gottschee-surnames.php

I spoke in detail about my father's autosomal matches from the Lower Carniola and Gottschee regions in my following messages:

https://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,14941.msg622963.html#msg622963
https://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,14941.msg623931.html#msg623931

Could it be possible that my father's ancestor was named Briskin and migrated from Făgăraș to another part of Transylvania where he received the Csicsik nickname, and then migrated to Strehaia? Maybe, but again, ony Y-DNA testing will confirm this hypothesis. However, there are no autosomal matches with ancestors named Briskin/Briški or Csicsik.

In conclusion, the Rumanian online archives helped with my overall genealogical research, but not with the research about the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, because they don't go back in time far enough.


P.S.
Two Big Y tests were completed recently, the ones for R. Vojinović and V. Pajić. Both have the I-FT36856 haplogroup, so their paternal ancestors belonged to the Kosovčić branch of the Drobnjak tribe.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zdM76zu-n6DL1tFqyKi3aYox8syOSiAO/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xwR24aB6ZrnYVUtDbPcbi-X9z6s3P0nK/view?usp=sharing

The false Big Y match about which I spoke in my message from 25.11.2025 has disappeared, likely because I posted about it on the Big Y Facebook group.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #226 : 14 Февраля 2026, 20:15:44 »
This is a two part message.

PART 1

I have created a thread about the I-FGC22045 haplogroup on the Rumanian forum Genealogica, named "A Balkano-Carpathian Y Haplogroup of Norman origin (I-FGC22045)".

Un haplogrup Y Balcano-Carpatic de origine Normandă (I-FGC22045)

https://forum.genealogica.ro/index.php?topic=522.0

This message is actually a response to a criticism from that thread saying that I rely too much in my research on autosomal matches, especially little ones (under 20 cM). From now on, I may post the same message in two languages on two different forums. Of course, if I find something new.

As for small autosomal matches, they deserve a separate discussion, because they can sometimes be very helpful, as I will demonstrate below. And other times the amount of shared DNA does not reflect the degree of relatedness. For example, I have a 3rd cousin, who I already knew about, with whom I only have 9 cM in common on Ancestry, although a great-grandmother of mine was the sister of a great-grandfather of hers. I don't know if it's a mistake made by Ancestry or if we just have so much DNA in common. It's very possible that the DNA she and I inherited from our common ancestors only overlapped on these 9 cM, so this shows that a small match can sometimes hide a large relationship.

I have never discounted matches below 10 cM, although I know that many, including some professional genealogists, consider them unreliable and therefore of no use for genealogical research. Other genealogists or genealogy enthusiasts, however, consider them important.

A few years ago, Ancestry automatically removed all matches between 6-8 cM, but left the possibility to keep those that are included in a user-defined group, or those with whom messages have been exchanged. I then saved about 1000 of my father's matches, especially the ones with family trees, which turned out to be a good decision.

It is true that Munteanu is a common surname, but other surnames are not common, and their association with Munteanu can show that the kinship with the respective match is on the strictly paternal line.

For example, my father has a match on Ancestry called M.S., with which he has 6 cM in common, so an extremely small match. The account is managed by C. Sebesanu. Instead, C. Sebesanu appears as a match for me, also with 6 cM in common. As a result, my father is also related to C. Sebesanu, and probably when I saved the matches under 8 cM of my father I somehow omitted C. Sebesanu, but not M.S., and in my case it was the other way around. From the genealogical trees of the two matches it follows that C. Sebesanu is the father of M.S. He has a great-grandfather in the tree named Ioan Sebeșanu, born on 20.11.1899 in Avrig, Sibiu county.

M.S. match
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l1gi8v2OtUupCCnPFQgDFx1xam0q6vnm/view?usp=sharing

C. Sebesanu match
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18zwOTp6NpF5XPKS_p-AtGSu4ZIGanAkZ/view?usp=sharing

C. Sebesanu tree
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wj2pTFKOCL7OyEiXEh1MYGrLyqST0Evs/view?usp=sharing

Until now I had nothing to do with this information, but since the publication of the archives they have become important.

I would even define a principle of genetic genealogy: "Small matches with useful trees are better than large matches with useless trees". The useful trees are those with dates and places of birth, essential for research in the archives, while the useless ones have no dates and places of birth or these are very vague, such as only the country mentioned as the place of birth.

So I looked for the name Sebeșanu in the archives of Avrig, using the index documents (IDX), to see if there is any marriage between people named Munteanu and Sebeșanu. And indeed, in the first document from the address below, picture/page 11, Andraś Muntean appears announcing the death of his wife Johanna Sebeșan.

https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=11834495

screenshot of the document
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IhK2WzHW5OsyUvcK2REzmb1W9HSQ8AHn/view?usp=sharing

But there is more. I looked for the name Sebeșanu in all the archives, by using the "Căutare Text" [Text Search] section, to see where it still appears. It does not appear many times, only in about 14 registers from the archives published so far. It appears, for example, in the register of marriages in Malaia, in the north of Vîlcea county, so relatively close to Sibiu. In that register on page/picture 8 is the marriage certificate from 1893 between Paraschiva Toader Sebeșanu (born on 4.10.1874 in Rășinari, Sibiu county) and Roman Puschiași (born on 6.6.1868 in Rigolato commune, Tolmedo district, Italy).

https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=1628755

screenshot of the document
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15TAM82Poja4RXkUgh5331uakT3Pel7HL/view?usp=sharing

I was surprised by this discovery, because I already knew about Roman Puschiași, whom I met earlier in A. Marin's tree, a very small match (6 cM) of my father on Ancestry. In her tree it appears as Romano Puschiasis, born on 6.6.1868 in Ludaria, Italy and married to Paraschiva Droc (b. 1850?), both being settled in Voineasa, which is right next to Malaia. Searching on the internet I discovered that Ludaria is actually Ludario, a hamlet in the commune of Rigolato, north-east Italy, close to the border with Austria. So they are the same people as those in the register, with the mention that A. Marin did not know the real name and year of birth of her great-great-grandmother when she made the tree.

A. Marin match
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mAWbD28JLHrnaKEJ3sZs-cafdVU5EiAJ/view?usp=sharing

A. Marin tree
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nlk3rXk0GLDNuo6b8Rcx16Dt32-wrJOu/view?usp=sharing

So it follows that my father is distantly related to the Sebeșan family from Avrig, but also to the Sebeșan family from Rășinari. The distance between Avrig and Rășinari is about 20 km in a straight line, so it is possible that it's the same family.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #227 : 14 Февраля 2026, 20:20:01 »
PART 2

Finally, I decided to look for the name Muntean in the registers of Rășinari. In the register of marriages from 1895-1902 appears the marriage between Ișa Muntean and Manó Suroiu in 1902. It is document 5 from the address below, page 30 / picture 541.

https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=10619244

screenshot of the document
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j27Jf2N_1bx0HLSTh6zJtSJpRjGxb4AZ/view?usp=sharing

The surname Suroiu looked familiar to me, and indeed it appears in the tree of a match of my father's also on Ancestry. It is G.B., a 21 cM match, whose Suroiu line originates from Rășinari.

G.B. match
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-eo_HdCeyuGIVRFY3oBdKH8aju3W1CBj/view?usp=sharing

G.B. tree
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j7zUcz_Z9zoGAYCZtpQzz35KwhK2IWUV/view?usp=sharing

It must be said that the name Muntean appears much more times in the registers from Rășinari than in those from Avrig. It is very possible that haplogroup I-PH3895 is also found in Rășinari.

Map of the Sibiu region with Avrig and Rășinari
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QKPk1jvnAcsz7a6YW72ZA_uEJkZjLGYB/view?usp=sharing

But this does not mean that all men named Muntean from Rășinari have this haplogroup. I spoke in the first 2 parts of the message linked below about T. Munteanu, whose paternal branch is from Gura Rîului, which is located about 12 km west of Rășinari. I convinced him to transfer his DNA data from MyHeritage to FTDNA and after paying the $19 he received the intermediate haplogroup G-FGC5089, which is also found in some of my father's autosomal matches on FTDNA. Then T. Munteanu ordered the Big Y test and received the precise haplogroup G-FT213149, which a man named Botu also has (paternal ancestor from Oteșani, Vîlcea county). This shows the population movements between Transylvania and Oltenia. Certainly others with the name Muntean or Munteanu from the Sibiu area have other haplogroups.

https://forum.rotter.se/index.php?topic=199859.msg1697412#msg1697412

I will probably be criticized for being too sure of the fact that the kinship with those from Rășinari is on the strictly paternal line, when in fact it can be on another line. In fact, the relationship on the Munteanu line is also suggested by another match, also small, having some rare ancestors' names, which are associated with the name Muntean in Rășinari.

M. Cruceat is a 12cM match on 23andMe. The names of her ancestors are: Vidrighin, Lac, Trestariu, Cruceat. All four of her grandparents are from the city of Sibiu, and the birthplaces of other ancestors were: Intorsura Buzăului (Covasna county), Rășinari (Sibiu county) and Cisnădioara (Sibiu county). I took the screenshots from my account because on my father's account 23andMe is forcing the switch to 2-factor authentication via SMS, instead of email, as it was before, which doesn't seem right to me without prior warning. Anyway, 23andMe says that the relationship to M. Cruceat is on my paternal line, and my dad shows up in shared matches with her.

M. Cruceat match
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UKXr9AXTOYZEjxOBvM1p3tLx3KSUgX_L/view?usp=sharing

M. Cruceat genealogical information
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AItxcsjApjvmkXHU6W2aZtEnnG6FXJZp/view?usp=sharing

M. Cruceat shared matches
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1--_E2-pue_yb4kIDELm2UksMSgR79sQl/view?usp=sharing

I searched in the archives of Rășinari and found the following instances where people named Muntean marry people named Vidrighin or Cruceat.

Marriages from Rășinari between 1895-1902
https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=10619244

Maria Muntean (mother Dobra Vidrighin) married in 1898 to Vidor Ciupariu - document 2, picture 226
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eD-Yyv0PSB2KAj4L6D7G74SwWS6PnxFY/view?usp=sharing

Ișa Muntean (mother Marina Cruciat) married in 1898 to Mihaly Dregan - document 3, picture 258
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g6qLADVoABydQIMoNxa1Yon5p64wEgWL/view?usp=sharing

Janos Muntean (mother Ana Vidrighin) married in 1902 to Maria Răduțiu - document 5, picture 543
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UQJKfLY_ejcNdwImn-oS6p4H0-NY3udT/view?usp=sharing

Rășinari marriages between 1903-1913
https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=10619244

Janos Muntean (mother Dobra Vidrighin) married in 1903 to Ana Fleschiu - document 1, picture 97
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jJLw0eP-JO7kZAMfuD9z3mFPslzjCFg1/view?usp=sharing

Janos Muntean (mother Dobra Gligor) married in 1903 to Marina Blezu (mother Sora Vidrighin) - document 2, picture 190
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xLpH_wXulzofnL_vd6UQull9DsHOk-x8/view?usp=sharing

Maria Muntean (mother Stanca Cotoară) married in 1907 to Șerb Poplăcian (mother Mariana Cruciat) - document 3, picture 450
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VGC3kuA5jkeOQMvfsoJqDB_kFqLrzI39/view?usp=sharing

Mariana Muntean (mother Virag Cojenel) married in 1913 to Peter Gligor (mother Sora Cruciat) - document 5, picture 552
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NIAbdOeqaUE638XVB1RHpqNhMxlqzDYJ/view?usp=sharing

As a coincidence (or not), the name Cruceat is a variant of the name Cruciat, which in turn comes from the noun "cruciat", meaning "participant in the crusades". Normans are known to have participated in large numbers in the Crusades.

==============
Many Normans of Italy, France and England eventually served as avid Crusaders soldiers under the Italo-Norman prince Bohemund I of Antioch and the Angevin-Norman king Richard the Lion-Heart, one of the more famous and illustrious Kings of England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans
=============

In conclusion, two very small autosomal matches led me to a middle match that suggests a possible place (Rășinari, Sibiu county) where my father's haplogroup could also be found. Another small match confirmed this place. The common denominator between the four matches is the presence of rare surnames, which I later remembered. If I had not taken into account all the autosomal matches, including the small ones, when researching haplogroup Y, then I would not have learned about these names and would not have been able to make the connection between them and the name Munteanu. Obviously, the presence in the Ancestry and 23andMe databases was essential, without it I would not have known about these matches. I must also say that the surnames Ghimiș and Cicic do not appear in the Avrig and Rășinari archives that were put online, so this strengthens my belief that Muntean was the original name, being the Transylvanian variant of Munteanu.

P.S.

FTDNA now shows only the Y-12 matches that have GD=0, so exact matches. The other Y-12 matches can only be seen by using the Advanced Matches feature located at the bottom of the home page. This is bad, because for example the two Swedes (Johansson and Bergqvist) who have haplogroups from the I-FT216475 sister branch of I-FGC22045 can now only be seen by using Advanced Matches, whereas other Y-12 matches with very distantly related haplogroups can be seen like before. It is true that the number of the displayed Y-12 matches has passed from almost 4000 to 1710, so they are displayed somewhat quicker.

The false Big Y match about whom I spoke in my previous messages has reappeared on 23.01.2026. It was probably removed manually, but then the new automated update reinstated it because the programmers have not fixed the bug causing the appearance of these false matches.

M.R. is a new Y-12 and Y-25 match for my father on FTDNA and he has the I-S14887 intermediate haplogroup received from the Family Finder test. I spoke with him and he told me that his great-great-grandfather (S. Ristović) originated from the village of Resići near Rudo, Bosnia-Herzegovina. The family story is that they originate from the Cuce tribe, who lived in the Cetinje region in southern Montenegro. It is possible that the old name of the family was Mijanović. He plans to buy the Big Y test sometime in the future.

There is also another new possibly closely related Y-25 match, L. G. Håkansson, a Swede with the I-S14887 haplogroup received from Family Finder.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1b6wIrJMTCkDbeEbv4oZOYM_GYrqCjCrC/view?usp=sharing

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #228 : 28 Февраля 2026, 20:17:46 »
The family story of the origin of the Munteanu line, as I recall it, claimed that the ancestor with this name came from Transylvania, specifically from Făgăraș, which is a region located along the Southern Carpathians between Brașov and Sibiu. It is not known when the direct paternal ancestor left this region, but it can be assumed that it was about 200 years ago, since his descendant, Vasile Munteanu, was born in Strehaia in 1847.

The Munteanu line is associated with haplogroup I-PH3895, and genealogical research should begin from this haplogroup, looking for individuals who have it. As can be seen, I-PH3895 is a sub-branch of I-P109.


I-M253>I-L22>I-P109>I-S14887>I-FGC22048 (I-FGC22046)>I-FGC22045>I-FGC22061>I-PH3895

In 2012, a study was conducted that attempted to find the Y haplogroup of the Basarab ruling family.

Y-Chromosome Analysis in Individuals Bearing the Basarab Name of the First Dynasty of Wallachian Kings
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3404992/

The idea was to test several men with the surname Basarab and then see if the majority of them had a certain Y haplogroup, which could therefore be that of the Basarab dynasty. 29 men with the Basarab surname were tested, most of them from the counties of Sibiu, Gorj, Caraș-Severin, Mehedinți, Bacău, Ilfov, but also a few from Bulgaria and Hungary. As a control group, 149 men from the counties of Dolj (38), Mehedinți (11), Cluj (50) and Brașov (50), who did not have the name Basarab and were not related to each other, were tested. The conclusion was that there is no major Y haplogroup in the tested men with the Basarab surname and that all the discovered haplogroups are commonly found in the geographical area that includes Eastern and Central Europe.

Of course, one could object that instead of spending money and resources on a study that didn't discover anything out of the ordinary, it would have been easier to find the Basarab haplogroup by testing the remains of Vlad the Monk, whose tomb had been found in 2005.

=================
{automatic translation from Rumanian, corrected by me}

Vlad the Monk (born 1425, Transylvania, Kingdom of Hungary – died November 1495, Glavacioc, Wallachia) was the son of Vlad Dracul, and a half-brother of Vlad the Impaler. After his brother's death, Vlad the Monk ruled Wallachia in 1481 and from 1482 to 1495. He rebuilt the Glavacioc monastery, where he was buried.
[...]
When he was buried at the Glavacioc Monastery, his grave was covered with a simple, inscription-free stone, thus erasing his memory. Since the 18th century, over 150 archaeologists have tried to find Vlad the Monk's grave, searching for him in over 60 locations across Romania. In August 2005, two archaeologists – Spiridon Cristocea, then director of the Argeș County Museum, and history professor Marius Păduraru – managed to discover his grave. The excavations uncovered very old bones, covered by a tombstone placed in 1704, two centuries after Vlad the Monk had died. On the stone it was written in Slavonic that "under this stone rest the bones of the Christian ruler Vlad the Monk, who had a very important contribution to the renovation of the monastery. The stone was placed by Abbot Stefan in March 1704."

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_C%C4%83lug%C4%83rul
================

But as I said before, there is currently no will at the state level to test the DNA of historical figures, so researchers have tried to find out the haplogroup in a roundabout way.

The aforementioned study did, however, discover something interesting, namely 4 men from Brașov County who have the haplogroup I-P109. This can be seen in Table S1 to which a link is provided at the end of the article presenting the study. Considering that the number of men tested from Brașov County was 50, it results that the haplogroup I-P109 was discovered in almost 10% of them. The number of those tested was still small, so the percentage of 10% is probably exaggerated, but it can be assumed that the haplogroup I-P109 is found in about 5% of men from Brașov County.

Haplogroup I-P109 is old and has many branches, but being of distant geographical origin (Scandinavian), it is quite likely that these 4 men actually have haplogroups from the same sub-branch of I-P109. And it is possible that this sub-branch is the same as my father's. In any case, the study demonstrated that there are Y haplogroups derived from I-P109 in Brașov County, which includes half of the Făgăraș area.


One of those who have haplogroup I-P109 is C.M. Gavenea, a Y-25 match who took the Y-67 test. Haplogroup I-P109 was received after purchasing a SNP package (when they were available at FTDNA), because it was present before FTDNA introduced the discovery of the intermediate Y haplogroup through the Family Finder autosomal test. Gavenea's email address is from Igenea, which means it's not a real address, but just an automatic redirect to the real address. I contacted him and he didn't respond. The problem isn't with Igenea, because a month ago I contacted another Y-STR match with an Igenea address and he responded the next day. There are no more Y-STR matches from Rumania that have the haplogroup I-P109.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BSu82d3dbXg-N0b3bHBUemzcrM1lOTVo/view?usp=sharing

C.M. Găvenea (the correct spelling of the name) is from Sînpetru (Sânpetru), a village near Brașov. Interestingly, the locality has historical connections with the Teutonic Knights and a French monastic order that had also built a monastery in Cîrța, a village in the Făgăraș area.

=================
{automatic translation from Rumanian, corrected by me}

Sânpetru (German: Petersburg, Hungarian: Barcaszentpéter) is a commune in Brașov County, Transylvania, Romania, consisting only of the village of the same name.
[...] The locality is documented since 1240, under the name Mons Sancti Petri. However, it was founded earlier, during the rule of the Teutonic Knights, namely by the "group of one hundred" of Prejmereni [people from Prejmer, Brașov]. The Romanesque church on the Sânpetru hill also dates from the 13th century, largely demolished in 1794. Traces of a painting on one of the walls of the fortified fortress led experts to assume that, at that place, the Cistercian monks [a Catholic monastic order] had built a monastery around 1240.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A2npetru,_Bra%C8%99ov

Prejmer, formerly Prajmar, Preșmer (in Saxon dialect Torteln or Tuerteln, in German Tartlau, Tartlen, Tortalen, in Hungarian Prázsmár) is the seat of the commune of the same name in Brașov County, Transylvania, Romania. The date of foundation and the origin of the settlement are unknown. The Slavic origin of the Romanian and Hungarian name of the locality allows the hypothesis that the current locality was preceded by an older settlement of Slavic origin. The only thing certain is that the first documentary attestation dates back to 1240, when King Béla IV of Hungary (1235-1270) ceded the church of Prejmer with “all its income and rights” to the chapter of the Citeaux Monastery in Burgundy [France], the mother abbey of the Cistercian Order, for the public benefit of the entire order.[...] Around 1211, King Andrew II of Hungary mentions in a document addressed to the Teutons the name of the Târlung River, next to which the town of Prejmer will grow. The Teutonic Knights who received rights over this territory are the ones who built the church of Tartlau (the Saxon name of the place) up to a certain level. The place of worship was built in the Burgundian Gothic style introduced by the Cistercians in Cârța [Făgăraș area, Sibiu county].

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejmer,_Bra%C8%99ov
===============

In the indexed archives (which have an attached IDX document) of Sînpetru there are people named Muntean, but there are no people named Găvenea. However, there are also unindexed archives available that should be browsed page by page and I didn't do that, so it is possible that the name Găvenea existed earlier in Sînpetru. The names Muntean and Găvenea are however found in the indexed archives of Moieciu de Jos and the neighboring villages (Măgura, Peștera, Șimon, Fundata), located about 20-30 km southwest of the city of Brașov and close to Bran Castle, which was also originally built by the Order of the Teutonic Knights.

https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=10257495
https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=10734846
https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=10745967

============
The Teutonic Order began building a wooden fort called Dietrichstein here [in Bran] early in the 13th century. After the fort's destruction in 1242 by the Mongols ("Tatars"), King Sigismund of Hungary ordered a stone castle to be built in 1377, while the settlement of Bran began to develop nearby. Positioned high atop a steep cliff, the castle guarded a strategic trade route between Transylvania and Wallachia. In 1498, Bran came under the jurisdiction of Brașov.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bran,_Bra%C8%99ov#History
===========

The second match I want to talk about is J. Muntean, a Y-25 match who originally had haplogroup I-M253 (obtained from a Y-67 test). Since the end of last year, however, he has haplogroup I-M170, the parent haplogroup of I1 (I-M253), but also of I2 (I-P215). From what I understood from the FTDNA forum, those who now have I-M170 but previously had I-M253 will later automatically revert to I-M253. Haplogroup I1 (I-M253) is very old and as a result J. Muntean may have a specific haplogroup that is not on the I-P109 subbranch. In addition, he did not take the Family Finder test, so I don't know if he is an autosomal match.

J. Muntean does not have a family tree, but I did some research on the internet and it turns out that his grandfather who emigrated to the USA was called Moise Muntean. In the documents available on the internet, the place of birth is not specified. The birth year is around 1920, deduced from the birth year of his sons (1957-1959). I contacted J. Muntean at the email address used for the FTDNA account, but he did not respond. There are no other Y-STR matches named Muntean/Munteanu.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tfPUS9ViZaoAYxdr8rmGPwG208pCCcUL/view?usp=sharing

I searched for the name Muntean Moise and Muntean Mozes (with the Hungarian variant of the first name) in the archives on the internet. Unfortunately, the archival portal does not have a search function that shows only results which contain an exact sequence of words, as Google does. For example, if you search with Google for "Muntean Moise" (put in quotation marks) the results show you the pages where this exact sequence appears. The portal search results contain all the registers where the names Moise / Mozes and Muntean appear, in most cases not being associated. So I only looked at the registers that had a preview in the list of results, that showed exactly the sequence I was looking for (Muntean Moise or Muntean Mozes) appeared.

I found a Muntean Mozes born in Voila (Brașov county), and several born in Amnaș, Merghindeal, Apoldu de Jos (all in Sibiu county). However, I have not found in the currently available archives a Mozes Muntean who could be J. Muntean's grandfather, most likely because the birth registers from 1920 are not yet online. The largest number of Mozes Muntean appears in the registers from Apoldu de Jos.

https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=11834544
https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=11834545

If we assume that Moise Muntean was from Apoldu de Jos, then a hint that J. Muntean might have the same haplogroup as my father is given by a rare surname, Găvozdea, which also occurs in the registers from Apoldu de Jos. My father has a match (16.2 cM on 1 segment) on MyHeritage called D.V. Gavozdea, but her tree has no birthplaces, so I don't know the place of origin of her Gavozdea line.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11nLan7qEdNoxYAmwYXGsLR7u-rl3-xZe/view?usp=sharing (match)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ryFvgtZbwV8-1dhJjS4VG2Cjlul7h0Mu/view?usp=sharing (tree)

In conclusion, it is possible that C.M. Gavenea and J. Muntean have the same haplogroup Y as my father, but the lack of willingness to communicate, the main problem of contemporary genealogy, prevents the verification of this hypothesis.

P.S.
When trying to visit the forum, Kaspersky antivirus blocked the page with this message: "Visiting an untrustworthy website has been prevented" (see the screenshot below). This problem should be solved, because it affects the forum's reputation.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1didLIV9HyGAaphaRxZ741bvv_9vOFNih/view?usp=sharing

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #229 : 08 Марта 2026, 20:11:57 »
This is a four part message

FĂGĂRAȘ - PART 1

I will now try to verify the veracity of the Munteanu lineage's Făgăraș origin using autosomal matches. The Făgăraș origin can be proven by the existence of DNA segments shared with matches that have ancestors from there. I mention from the beginning that I cannot be sure that the DNA shared with these matches comes from the ancestor from Făgăraș (supposed to have haplogroup I-PH3895) and not from another lineage also originating from Făgăraș, that we do not know about at the moment. Things may become clearer as we go along. Currently I cannot research my father's maternal line, because the archives from Strîmtu (Slivilești commune) and Văgiulești, both in Gorj county, have not yet been put on the internet.

There are many matches with ancestors from Brașov or Sibiu counties. I will take into consideration the matches that have ancestors only from these counties, with one exception. I will also discuss matches that have ancestors from elsewhere, if the ancestors from Brașov or Sibiu have surnames that are also found in another match where the ancestors with that surname are also from Brașov or Sibiu. Most of the matches are from Ancestry, which allows you to find through a filtered search the matches that have a specific geographical place (locality, county, country) in the family tree. Unfortunately, on MyHeritage you cannot do this, and basically you have to look at the tree of each match and write down the localities from the tree somewhere. I didn't do that, because there are thousands of matches, and that means there are certainly some with ancestors from Brașov or Sibiu counties that I don't know about yet.


But Ancestry also has disadvantages, a major one being that you can see the matches' trees only if you have a paid subscription (the cheapest is about 25 USD per month). At the moment I don't have a subscription, but when I did I saved in PDF format those trees that seemed interesting for my genealogical research. At that time there was a drawback, namely the fact that the birthplaces were saved incompletely (truncated) if they were too long. Usually the village or city was the one that disappeared, leaving the county and the country, so basically what was more useful was removed, because from a locality you can deduce the county and the country, but not vice versa. Whenever I saved a tree that had this problem, I copied the birthplaces and added them to the Ancestry note for that match (you can write a note of up to 500 characters for each match). This is why some of the trees I saved that I will link to here do not actually have the exact birthplaces, but I know them because they are present in the notes associated with the matches. In the meantime, Ancestry has solved the problem and now the birthplaces are saved correctly, even if they are long. However, I recommend saving all important trees, because there are quite frequent situations in which trees are made private, and in rarer cases, matches disappear (they close their accounts).

1) C. M. Damian is a match on Ancestry, sharing 16 cM on 2 DNA segments. She has Miclăuș ancestors from Șercăița on her maternal line and Pică ancestors from the city of Făgăraș and Toderița. All localities are from the Făgăraș area. Her paternal ancestors are from elsewhere, but I take her into account because ancestors named Pică also appear in the tree of the next match.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GszyPn_ZwbYeHpRdDhkQiE9O206x283Q/view?usp=sharing (potrivire)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vxCEkOkYoT91ip3yUpwRrVy3KAa_CWk9/view?usp=sharing (arbore)

2) M. Baldea is a match on Ancestry, sharing 7 cM on 1 DNA segment. She has Pică ancestors from Făgărașu Nou (Topolog commune), Tulcea county, on her maternal line.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14jTP0d4oi4PomnHwvfayMvB8J1dEv4Am/view?usp=sharing (potrivire)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QUFTWOOHQT9htYAIfsA8nYMMc4RHqHOl/view?usp=sharing (arbore)
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/pedigree/landscape/GTP7-V6V (arbore pe FamilySearch)

From the name of the village, it is clear that these ancestors were Mocans originally from Făgăraș who went on transhumance with their flocks of sheep to Dobrudja and some of them remained there, even when Dobrudja was part of the Ottoman Empire.

==============
The Mocani (sg. Mocan), sometimes referred to as Mocans in English, are an ethnic Romanian subgroup composed by shepherds from Transylvania traditionally practicing transhumance between southern Transylvania and the region of Dobruja. A large number of Mocani left the Habsburg monarchy [Austria-Hungary] to escape the oppression they were subjected to in their homeland and settled permanently in Dobruja, a region then under the Ottoman Empire where they had more freedom and could own more land. This region was then multiethnic, composed of native ethnic Romanians but also of many other peoples such as Turks or Tatars. Following the integration of Northern Dobruja into Romania in 1878, more Mocani migrated to the region.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mocani
==============

It may seem surprising, but some Mocans from Transylvania preferred to leave the Austro-Hungarian Empire and settle in the Ottoman Empire, because they were not subject to all kinds of persecution and, in addition, they received land in their own right to work, because the population was small at the time.

=================
{automatic translation from Rumanian by Google Translate}

Long before Dobruja was returned to Romania [in 1878], the Transylvanians discovered this welcoming land between the Danube and the sea, where they could speak their ancestral language and worship icons, even though it was ruled by the Turks. Here, the first dismounted settlers from beyond the Carpathians found vast and rich pastures for their herds of sheep and suitable places to establish a household. Alongside Romanians from Dobruja, Turks, Tatars, Gagauzians, Lipovans, Greeks, Armenians and Germans, Romanians from Transylvania also came to Dobruja, especially from the area where shepherding was the main occupation since ancient times, more precisely, from the string of villages on the Braşov-Făgăraş-Sibiu-Orăştie line, historian Dumitru Şandru stated in 1946.

In Dobruja, these Romanians are known by the generic term of mocani, but they call themselves by different nicknames, according to their place of origin in Transylvania or that of their parents. For example, those from the Braşov area, from Ţara Bârsei, are Bârsani, or Săceleni, Brăneni, Moroeni or, with a mocking name, Trocari. Those from the Olt Valley, around Făgăraş, are Făgăraşi or Olteni, and those from the Sibiu region are Ţuţi and, especially, Mărgineni.

Historian Valentin Ciorbea says that the transhumance of shepherds in Romanian space is a reality, as people from the mountains used to bring their animals to warmer areas. "They preferred to come to Dobruja because the Ottoman Empire provided favorable conditions: taxes were low or even non-existent. It was a little warmer then, in the Dobrujan valleys they sheltered their flocks and could also do grazing. The production was sold on the market there or in the Ottoman Empire. The Mocani entered this region either through Silistra or through Hârşova," says the historian.

Some Mocani returned with their sheep to their native lands, while others, on the other hand, stayed there and founded their own households. After 1878, when the issue of a serious colonization of Dobruja arose, the number of Mocans also increased. "In addition to transhumance," says Professor Ciorbea, "many of the Mocans also came because of the difficult conditions they had in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. In Dobruja they had more freedom."

The historian says that these Mocans were better off under the Ottomans than under the Austro-Hungarians, where the issue also arose from a national aspect. On the other hand, here they also received house lots and the Mocans were able to establish beautiful households. The historian says that there is no other region in Romania where such a large population of Mocans came.

The transhumance of Transylvanian shepherds is attested since the 15th century. According to a document from around 1418, Michael, son of Mircea the Great, confirmed the privilege that his father had given to the commune of Cisnădie, in Sibiu County, so that the Romanians there could graze their flocks in the mountains of his country.

In addition to the large number of those who passed through with their flocks, there was also a large number of those who left because of the abuses of the favored [Transylvanian] Saxons, religious persecution, the establishment of border regiments, in which they were forced to enlist, the long and difficult military service, as well as the injustices they had to endure from the ruling authority.

Historian Dumitru Şandru says that "The penetration of Transylvanians into Dobrogea was done gradually, in small groups, a fact that could go unnoticed and, therefore, not recorded by the few documents of the time. During Ottoman rule, in Dobruja, the population was so rare and the land for plowing or grazing so vast and untamed, that very rarely did misunderstandings arise that would lead to their regulation in writing," the historian believes.

https://adevarul.ro/stiri-locale/constanta/povestea-mocanilor-dobrogeni-ardelenii-care-au-1793401.html
=================

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #230 : 08 Марта 2026, 20:12:39 »
FĂGĂRAȘ - PART 2

3) B. Taz [Tăzlăoanu] is a match on Ancestry, sharing 12 cM on 1 DNA segment. She has Cosgarea/Coșgarea ancestors from Vad (Șercaia commune), Brașov county on her maternal line. Her tree also shows the migration of the Mocans from Făgăraș to Casimcea, Tulcea county in Dobruja.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CtLYuJtWfam03Y2HA25G4yek8rMVFdTM/view?usp=sharing (potrivire)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/117xhftQpCavLONkJ0K2WTIY6JakbfZjz/view?usp=sharing (arbore)

==============
{automatic translation from Rumanian}

Since the 15th century, Romanians from some areas of southern Transylvania (Mărginimea Sibiului, Bran, Şcheii Braşovului, Săcele) have practiced transhumant herding, characterized by raising a large number of sheep, oxen and horses that they kept in the summer on the mountain pastures of the Carpathians and in the winter they would descend with them to Bărăgan and Dobruja, in the meadows and ponds of the Danube. [...] In the following years [after 1857] other Mocans from Săcele settled around Hârşova in the villages of Cemşiler, Gârliciu and Groapa Ciobanului. Other Săcelenians founded new villages in Dobruja, such as Aliman (by the mocan Ion Aliman), Cochirleni, Casimcea (by the Trandaburu, Vineş and Moroianu families), Ogoarele, Hărculeşti and others.

https://www.saceleanul.ro/pe-urmele-mocanilor-in-dobrogea-unde-acestia-s-au-stabilit-partial-inca-de-pe-timpul-imperiului-otoman/
=============

On the paternal line, B. Taz's ancestors are from other places, but the name Cosgarea/Coșgarea is also found in the tree of the next match.

4) A. S. Tarmu is a match (14 cM) on 23andMe and MyHeritage. Her maternal line (Strîmbu, Cosgarea) is originally from Vad, Șercaia, Brașov County. On 23andMe you can see that although she is female, her page shows the intermediate Y haplogroup R-U152, which means that her father also took the test. However, he is not a match, which means that the relationship is on her maternal line from Vad. It is clear that her ancestors named Cosgarea were part of the same family as B. Taz's Cosgarea ancestors, also from Vad. The screenshots on 23andMe are taken from my account.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17Eui9fcRWjlEtd-_AzX0GYjduaTj-2dO/view?usp=sharing (potrivire 23andMe - 1)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZwTgGlwwq5Xlcg43DViyKwoVHP6EBDYU/view?usp=sharing (potrivire 23andMe - 2)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W6An39RaJJoEFqwOgoFIbfGssrTPuOej/view?usp=sharing (potrivire 23andMe - 3)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18W32xrj300gsbKqOfk_fkOtZuRSqpK49/view?usp=sharing (potrivire MyHeritage - 1)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13xIS7rDq95QB7zCpTMdE1SII62KvQ2Rb/view?usp=sharing (potrivire MyHeritage - 2)

Among the shared matches with A. S. Tarmu are:

4.1) And*** : Her maiden name was Muntean

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JPJw12pK5dDds7UATMKcGIL9Yi248ZTv/view?usp=sharing (potrivire comună)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d0QLSF0OniauNHugYeA1OSClUohjUiRG/view?usp=sharing (arbore)

4.2) D.M Andrecau : Her maiden name was Muntean

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ulPh78tV8sjOsG_I1TieRvtoPHZ98H2F/view?usp=sharing (potrivire comună)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1quH22yQV-1_Wp6-c-mLlg_hldHVdUUtZ/view?usp=sharing (arbore)

4.3) D.V. Gavozdea : I talked about her in the previous message, when I said that she has no birthplaces in the tree. The name Găvozdea is very rare and according to the archives posted on the internet, as well as according to LocateFamily.com, it is found especially in Sibiu County (Sibiu, Ocna Sibiului, Gura Rîului, Apoldu de Sus, Apoldu de Jos). I contacted her, but she did not respond.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16ZK8bNst2N-rzhjp_y2byyGMmgwrKgVf/view?usp=sharing (potrivire comună)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ryFvgtZbwV8-1dhJjS4VG2Cjlul7h0Mu/view?usp=sharing (arbore)
https://www.locatefamily.com/G/GAV/GAVOZDEA-1.html

4.4) V. Dragotoiu : Her maiden name is Drăgotoiu and she is very likely a descendant of Vasile Drăgotoiu, my paternal grandfather's cousin.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zaKcemyuYoz5dxWszLK2572gfW5dIJBi/view?usp=sharing

The surname Cosgarea from the village of Vad that appears in the family tree of B. Taz and A.S. Tarmu is a very rare name, which is found especially in Brașov County (Vad, Ohaba, Șinca Veche) according to the archives posted on the internet and the site LocateFamily.com.

https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cautare-text/?ts=cosgarea&pg=1&pgs=100&cs=3&srt=0&sro=1
https://www.locatefamily.com/C/COS/COSGAREA-1.html

On Ancestry you can only see the shared matches if you have a subscription ($25 per month) and the Pro Tools package ($10 per month). I don't currently have them, so I can't see the shared matches with B. Taz.

But I can see the matches shared with A.S. Tarmu on MyHeritage. I don't think it's a coincidence that two of them (And*** and Andrecau) had the maiden name Muntean (the Transylvanian variant of Munteanu), the third has a rare last name found mainly in Sibiu County, and the fourth's genealogical relationship is almost certainly on the Munteanu line.

The birthplaces of their Muntean ancestors are not specified in the trees of And*** and D.M. Andrecau. I contacted both of them a month and a half ago and asked them about these birthplaces, but they didn't respond. Below is a screenshot of the message I sent.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KLCCm-Xcg0SYpiAFM9fM9N1DnH2j_n61/view?usp=sharing

However, they may not know that I contacted them, just like D.V. Gavozdea. MyHeritage has a big disadvantage compared to the rest of the DNA testing companies that have their own messaging systems. When you receive a message from a match, Ancestry, 23andMe and MyHeritage put a little red dot over the icon that symbolizes messaging. However, only Ancestry and 23andMe also alert you by email that you have received a message. MyHeritage doesn't do this, which is a mistake, because it makes genealogical research more difficult. If you visit MyHeritage regularly, you can see that you have received a message, but if you don't do it for months or years, you will not know and will not be able to respond. In the case of Ancestry and 23andMe, regardless of whether you visit them regularly or not, you will find out in your email account if someone has contacted you and you can respond to them. So I can't blame anyone who is present on MyHeritage for not responding to my messages, because maybe they don't visit their account regularly and don't know about my message.

In the marriage register from Vad (1895-1906), which has an IDX document attached, you can find the surnames Muntean, Cosgarea and Strîmbu.

https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=10831372

In conclusion, it is very likely that in the village of Vad and the neighboring ones (Ohaba, Şinca Veche) there are Muntean men with the I-PH3895 haplogroup.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #231 : 08 Марта 2026, 20:14:26 »
FĂGĂRAȘ - PART 3

An interesting thing is related to the Strîmbu family from Vad, which appears in A.S. Tarmu's tree. Strîmbu is the real family name of the scholar Gheorghe Șincai. The Wikipedia article about him doesn't say this, but it is said in a genealogical article about his ancestors from Șinca Veche, which is 4 km from Vad.

============
{automatic translation from Rumanian}

George (or Gheorghe) Șincai (b. February 28, 1754, Râciu, Principality of Transylvania – d. November 2, 1816, Svinica, Austrian Empire) was a Romanian historian, philologist, translator, Greek-Catholic theologian and writer, representative of the Transylvanian School. [...] The Șincai family came from the village of Șinca Veche from the Făgăraș region.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gheorghe_%C8%98incai

---------------------------------

The historian Gheorghe Şincai quotes the Szekler chronicler Mihai Cserei, who speaks of the Curuts' attack on the customs house at Turnu Roşu in 1705: "... cutting down the commandant of the place, the Germans [Austrians] were captured alive and the rationalist from Turnu Roşu, Ştefan Şincai, perished there, and the captured Germans they brought to the camp". Then he adds: "This Ştefan Şincai was a brother to Andrei Şincai, whose grandson I am, Gheorghe, who writes these things". Researching the life and work of this Ştefan Şincai, we learn that his original family name, and as such the Şincaeşti people's, was Strîmbul. Gheorghe Şincai is probably continuing a family tradition when he states that he was called Perş. It is indeed not excluded that the neighboring village of Perşani (from which the name of the Perşani Mountains derives), was named after an eponymous hero Perş from Şinca. However, in the documents available to us, the Perş family is missing in the village of Şinca, while the boyar family Strîmbul is very frequent in documents from the 17th century.

The first to prove that Gheorghe Şincai's family was called "Sztriimbuly de Sinka" was the renowned Romanian historian and genealogist Ioan Puşcariu. He also says that a member of the family was Ştefan Şincai: "A writer from here was a customs officer at Turnu Roşu [in] 1729". In his work "Historical data regarding Romanian families", Ioan Cavaler de Puşcariu gives other details about the family "Sztrimbu alias Strimbu vel Ztrimbul de Sinka et Vaad." "This family - Pușcariu's words are reproduced in today's language - numbered in Șinca and the neighboring village of Vad about 20 families."

"Strămoșii lui Gheorghe Șincai" [Gheorghe Șincai's Ancestors] by Pavel Binder (click on "View/Open" in the page linked below).
https://dspace.bcu-iasi.ro/handle/123456789/80860
================

The same thing is said in an article on the English Wikipedia about the Sinka family (pronounced "Shinca" in Hungarian) from Făgăraș.

================
Sinka, also spelt Șinca, was a noble (boyar) kindred of Romanian origin, attested from the 15th century, in southern Transylvania, in Șinca Valley, in the historic region of Țara Făgărașului. Over the past five centuries, members of this kindred distinguished themselves in politics, administration, the military, culture, ecclesiastical affairs, and diplomacy. The Sinka boyars were part of the military elite, known in the southern Transylvanian context as the "old and good boyars" (Romanian: boieri vechi și buni), first mentioned in historical records during the time when the Wallachian princes (voivodes) ruled Țara Făgărașului as dukes (from the 14th to the 15th centuries).
[...]
Another branch of the Sinka boyars includes the Strîmbu branch, which was formed by the 16th century, and embraced the Greek-Catholic faith in the 18th century. Some members of this branch became priests, while others, like Ștefan Strîmbu Sinkay literatus, a soldier who became a border officer at Turnu-Roșu castle (ca.1729) at the onset of the Habsburg rule. However, the most prominent personality of this line was Ștefan's descendant, Gheorghe Șincai de Șinca (1754–1816), historian, philologist, translator and poet, and a leading figure of the Transylvanian School during the Enlightenment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinka_de_Sinka
==============

Finally, a coincidence (or not) related to Şincai (Sinka) from Făgăraș. The article cited above also presents the family coat of arms, which is a silver lion with a forked tail, similar to the lion on the Montfort family coat of arms, also silver and also with a forked tail.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maison_de_Montfort-l%27Amaury
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinka_de_Sinka#/media/File:Sinka_de_Sinka.png

I spoke at length in a message posted on the Molgen forum about the Montfort family coat of arms and the fact that it was derived from that of the Hainaut family. The lion was a common feature on the coats of arms of medieval noble families, but the lion with a forked tail did not appear frequently. Why the Sinka (Şincai) family chose it to represent them remains an enigma, which might be solved if we found out the Y haplogroup of their contemporary descendants.

https://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,14941.msg621132.html#msg621132

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #232 : 08 Марта 2026, 20:15:50 »
FĂGĂRAȘ - PART 4

And speaking about the Montfort family of Norman origin, I found out from the I1 (M253) Facebook group that the Y haplogroup of Rollo could be discovered this year, according to an article published on the site of the University of Winchester, England.

===================
The bones of medieval kings and bishops have been reinterred in six mortuary chests in Winchester Cathedral after more than a decade of painstaking forensic work to piece together the jumbled remains. Begun in 2012, the Mortuary Chests Project has involved the expertise of an array of specialist academics, conservators, staff and volunteers to repair the chaos created within the caskets when they were broken open during the English Civil War (1642). Individual skeletons have been re-assembled, using osteological techniques and DNA analysis.
[...]
The bones pre-date the mortuary chests and can be traced to the seventh to twelfth centuries. It is thought many of the bones were buried first in the Anglo-Saxon Old Minster, which stood on a site adjacent to the present cathedral. Among the famous names given in Latin on the sides of the six chests are William Rufus (William II of England, son of William Conqueror), Cnut (the first Danish King of England) and Queen Emma -  a remarkable Norman noblewoman who became Queen of England twice, as the wife of King Æthelred the Unready then Cnut the Great, and was mother to a pair of kings -  Harthacnut and Edward the Confessor. Others named on the chests are Cynegils, Cynewulf, Ecgbert, Æthelwulf, Eadred, Edmund, Bishop Wine and Bishop Alwine. It is also likely that the chests contain remains of other early medieval figures. The project’s findings on the likely identities of the skeletons are expected to be made public later this year.
[...]
Dr [Heidi] Dawson-Hobbis has worked on the project since the start as the humans remains specialist. Her task was to 'excavate' and record all of the material from the six chests, and then to try and re-associate each bone to create individual skeletons using osteological and forensic techniques. [...] Heidi said: “'It is really special to see these remains returned to their resting place within the mortuary chests knowing that we now have a full inventory of their contents. This information will be held within an archive at the Cathedral and we hope to publish the full results over the next year or so. We currently await the final results from a DNA and isotopic studies."

https://www.winchester.ac.uk/News-and-Events/Press-Centre/Media-Articles/University-helps-Cathedral-solve-medieval-bone-puzzleinvolving-kings-and-bishops.php
===================

I remember that when I posted on the Poreklo.rs forum and asked about the situation of the remains of Prince Nikola Rašković Drobnjak, I was told that the administration of the Serbian Genealogists Society Poreklo is trying to conduct a more in-depth DNA test of them at a specialized laboratory in England, but that the bureaucracy is opposed to the transfer of the remains across state borders. Obviously, the reason given was not plausible, because countless DNA tests have been done that required the transfer of ancient or medieval human remains across state borders and there was no problem. I now believe that the real reason is that no laboratory contacted by Poreklo wanted to test the remains of a local ruler from the Balkans, considered too unimportant. Now we see that the English managed to test some medieval historical figures from England, which could advance the genealogical study of Norman families. If we also had the DNA test of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak, we could have compared it with the tests done in England, and the enigma of haplogroup I-FGC22045 could have been solved.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #233 : 14 Марта 2026, 20:29:25 »
This is an nine part message.

PART 1

GENETIC MATCHES WITH IMINOVICI ANCESTORS

In this message I will discuss two small matches that are associated with a very rare family name. They are also interesting due to their probable relationship to a great cultural figure from our country, Mihai Eminescu (real name Mihail Eminovici), whose paternal genealogy is extremely controversial, giving rise to countless hypotheses over time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihai_Eminescu

In what follows I rely on the trees of the matches and on published works that discuss the Eminovici family's connections to Transylvania and Făgăraș in particular. The Eminovici name is pronounced like Eminovich in English or Эминович in Russian.

1) R. Rathbone is a match (7 cM) for my father and me on Ancestry. According to her tree, her maternal great-great-grandfather is Ioan Iminovici, born in 1865 in the village of Vad, Șercaia commune, Brașov county, a village I mentioned in my previous message. Gheorghe Iminovici (b. 1887), Ioan's son, emigrated to the USA, where he married Maria Ștrompea (b. 1902 in Seliștat, Brașov county) and changed his name to Menovich, to make it easier for Anglophones to pronounce. His son, George Menovich (b. 1918), is R. Rathbone's maternal grandfather.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ClO-hKo8rGEKhXeUzGLjDO_U3fzBqkeH/view?usp=sharing (R. Rathbone match)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cCeQeKHsM4JN5xouJ5jHn46tMSr6g5XM/view?usp=sharing (R. Rathbone tree)

2) Kerrir is a match only for me on Ancestry, sharing 11 cM on 2 DNA segments. It is very likely that one of the shared segments is the one that my father shares with R. Rathbone (Ancestry does not provide information about the location of the shared DNA segments). Her paternal grandmother was named Marie Menovich and was the daughter of the couple Gheorghe Iminovici and Maria Ștrompea, making her the sister of George Menovich.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xsjm41Poaauge0ZVTUN9Zs8FMeRFkh8T/view?usp=sharing (Kerrir match)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rx6HC2vNoGPw_ePwt82HtQaqsaHMHLF-/view?usp=sharing (Kerrir și R. Rathbone matches)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jiXKDQ_l58UTH3k1j4JOXmgys39eg7sg/view?usp=sharing (Kerrir tree)

The presence of families named Iminovici in Făgăraș, supposedly related to the Eminovici family from Bucovina, had long been known to those who dealt with Eminescu's genealogy. A documentary film was even made about it in 1996 called "Obîrșia lui Eminescu [Eminescu's Origin]". The author of the film is the writer Grid Modorcea (real name Mitică-Puiu Modorcea), on his father's side originally from the village of Grid, located near Vad, Brașov County.

=================
{automatic translation}

The film "Obârșia lui Eminescu" (1996) proposes, for the first time in Romanian cinema, the thesis of the poet's origin from Făgăraș, openly assuming a polemical and investigative role. Unlike classic commemorative documentaries, [Grid] Modorcea, [the film's director and screenwriter], adopts here a historical investigation structure, in which cinema becomes an instrument of research and demonstration. The approach is based on the progressive accumulation of evidence: the traces of the Eminovici and Iminovici families in the village of Vad, church registers, funeral crosses from the local cemetery, oral tradition and the interpretation of archival documents. Interviews with locals and a village teacher function as voices of collective memory, restoring a lived history. Cinematographically, the film stands out for its visual sobriety: static frames, insistent shots on stone, wood, written documents — materials of duration and continuity. Eminescu does not appear as a mythical figure, but as the result of a genealogy, a historical migration and a Transylvanian Romanian community. The film does not impose absolute conclusions, but creates a coherent argumentative field, inviting the reconsideration of a canonized biography.

https://regal-literar.ro/2026/02/26/ecranizarile-operei-eminesciene-vi-documentarele/

https://www.cinemagia.ro/filme/obarsia-lui-eminescu-33503/
==============

Articles about Eminescu are published every year around January 15, the poet's birthday, for example the one below, which resumes the hypothesis of Făgăraș origin.

==============
{automatic translation}

Professor Ion Funariu from Făgăraș did research when he was a teacher at the “Radu Negru” National College [from the city of Făgăraș] and wrote a book in which he published astonishing information about the poet: it seems that Mihai Eminescu’s ancestors are Transylvanians from the heart of Făgăraș Country, more precisely from the village of Vad, Şercaia commune, so famous for its daffodil meadow. To prove his point, the professor took all the church registers from Vad one by one and knocked on the doors of those who are still alive and bear the name Iminovici. It seems that in the 18th century, 8 families with this name lived in Vad, and currently there are only two.

The Iminovici from Vad emigrated from the village to Bucovina, settling in Călinești, Suceava. "This hypothesis came to me based on the fact that when I was teaching at the "Radu Negru" high school, there were several students named "Iminovici" and they were from Vad. Starting from this name - because Eminescu's family was also called Iminovici - I did some research in Vad and found that there were 8 families with this name there. Of those 8 families found in church scriptures, two remain today," said the author of the book in an interview for the "Salut Făgăraş" [website]. After 1700, in order not to convert to the Greek-Catholic religion, several inhabitants of the area left for other regions of the country. That is probably how the Iminovici families left.

https://bzb.ro/stire/stramosii-lui-eminescu-ar-fi-plecat-dintr-un-sat-din-judetul-brasov-a216378
================
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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #234 : 14 Марта 2026, 20:30:15 »
PART 2

THE HYPOTHESIS OF EMINESCU'S SERBIAN ORIGIN

The most detailed work published so far on the genealogy of Mihai Eminescu is "Legend and Truth in the Biography of M. Eminescu (Origins)", written by Ion Roșu. The book can be purchased from second-hand stores at a very low price. Being published in 1989, it is obviously a book that used the methods of classic genealogy, discussing all the hypotheses stated until then about the origin of the poet, adding also a new one, proposed by the author of the book.

https://www.targulcartii.ro/ion-rosu/legenda-si-adevar-in-biografia-lui-m-eminescu

Ion Roșu (1945-1996) was a poet, journalist, and librarian, but not a literary historian. However, his book was published by Cartea Românească, the most prestigious publishing house at the time, when all publishing houses were state-owned.

One of the chapters of the book is called "Sîrb pripășit în țară [Serb settled in the country]" and deals with the hypothesis of Serbian origin on the paternal line, justified by the "ovici" ending which is the most common ending of Serbian surnames (written "ović" in Serbo-Croatian).

======================
{automatic translation from Rumanian}

[...] We must say from the outset that we are actually facing the most plausible hypothesis analyzed so far about the origin of the Eminovici family. Theoretically, at least, the origin of the poet's ancestors from the homeland of Starina Novak does not encounter any difficulty. Taking first "-ovici", we will notice that Serbia is in a way the cradle of this patronymic suffix. [...] At the same time, let us show that Serbia is one of the Balkan territories that was under Ottoman domination for a long time, suffering a strong oriental influence in the lexicon, so the presence of the appellative "emin" in Old Serbian is also to be assumed. In fact, a general dictionary of the Serbo-Croatian language records this name under the quasi-identical form "jemin" [pronounced "iemin"], listing the meanings with which it circulated in the common Serbian language: 1. "official", 2. "village leader", 3. "consul", also specifying the Serbian word family born from this word: "jeminov", "jeminovac", "jeminluk". Which means that in Serbian from the word "jemin" a surname (nickname) "Jemin" could have been born, and from there through Slavicization with the patronymic suffix "-ović" we naturally arrived at the surname "Jeminović" [pronounced Ieminovici], that is, practically to our Eminovici. [...] Formed in Serbia, a "Jeminović" could then go to Romania, to finally settle in Bukovina, giving us the direct ancestors of Eminescu. And as for the integration of this Serb into the Romanian community, it could have been greatly facilitated by his [religious] confession - identical to ours -, so that the only sign of his foreign origin would remain his Eminovici surname.

Ion Roșu
"Legend and truth in the biography of M. Eminescu (Origins)" - Cartea Românească Publishing House, Bucharest, 1989 (pp. 52-53)
===============

The Serbian origin is indirectly supported by the current spread of the name Eminović (pronounced Eminovich), found mainly among Serbs and Bosnians, but also present among Croats, Slovenes and Kosovars. The association with Dubrovnik, mentioned on the Acta Croatica website, is interesting. On LocateFamily.com it can be seen that those with the name Eminović indexed there are Bosnians (from Konjić and Travnik) and Serbs (from Šabac and Novi Pazar).

=============
This last name [Eminović] is most commonly held in Serbia, where it is held by 928 people, or 1 in 7,699. In Serbia it is mostly found in: Raška District, where 44 percent are found, Pčinja District, where 31 percent are found and Belgrade, where 9 percent are found. Other than Serbia, Eminović exists in 7 countries. It is also found in Bosnia and Herzegovina, where 30 percent are found and Croatia, where 4 percent are found.

https://forebears.io/surnames/eminovi%C4%87

In Croatia, Eminović families are mainly Croat (from the Dubrovnik area), rarely Bosnian (from the Tuzla region) and very rarely Roma (from Bjelovar, Croatia). In the last century, most Croatian residents bearing this surname were born in Serbia and Dubrovnik.

https://actacroatica.com/en/surname/Eminovi%C4%87/

https://www.locatefamily.com/E/EMI/EMINOVIC-1.html
=============

The hypothesis of Serbian origin was first mentioned in an old genealogy book of the Moldavian nobility. The notion of "pripășit" means "a man who came from somewhere else and settled somewhere". The chamberlain was the boyar in charge of collecting taxes for drinks sold in taverns. The particle "vel" in the name of the position of "vel-chamberlain" means "big" and comes from the Slavic word "veliki", with the same meaning. The chamberlain Gheorghe Eminovici, the poet's father, stubbornly refused to give any information about his origin. Research in the archives showed that Gheorghe was the son of the cantor Vasile Eminovici from the village of Călinești (Șerbăuți), Suceava County, himself the son of Petrea Eminovici. Things are not clarified even today. It is only known that Vasile Eminovici came to the village of Călinești in 1804, but it is not known from where.

==================
{automatic translation}

Indeed, the hypothesis appears formulated for the first time in "Arhondologia Moldovei" by the cupbearer Constantin Sion, that is, around 1844-1856, when the grumbling and foul-mouthed old man was writing his cited work. In this original dictionary of the Moldavian boyars from the last century, [...] the following can be read next to the name EMINOVICI: "Serb settled into the country [Moldova] after the introduction of the "Regulation" and raised to the boyarship by Mihai Vodă."[...] Where did the old cupbearer have this information about Gheorghe Eminovici? [...] Regarding Gheorghe Eminovici, Constantin Sion would prove to be quite well informed, because as we will see in a later chapter, the poet's father had indeed come to Moldova after the introduction of the Organic Regulation (1831) and was honored with the title of "vel-căminar", around 1841, by Mihail Vodă Sturdza! Knowing so well the most important moments of the chamberlain's life, it is to be assumed that the statement about his Serbian origin must have had a cover in facts and that, therefore, in the Eminovici family there could have been some indications about a Serbian origin of their ancestors...

Ion Roșu
"Legend and truth in the biography of M. Eminescu (Origins)" - (pages 53-54)

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C4%83minar
===============

The name Iminovici, considered a variant of Eminovici, is mentioned in the city of Blaj, Alba county, Transylvania, being associated with the Serbian ethnicity.

==============
{automatic translation}

Our presumptions get a spectacular confirmation, with the publication by a resident of Iași, M. Bodinger, of the following manuscript belonging to a bookbinder from Blaj: "This holy book, namely Pentecostal, was bought from us Vasile Iminovici Rați by master Ursu [...] in the year 1771 in the month of December Day 10". What jumps out from the beginning is of course the name of the former owner of the pentecostal, i.e. that Iminovici, under which we guess without fail our Eminovici from Bucovina, because the vowel alternation i - e, often found in other names as well (see the cases: Irimia - Eremia, Iftimie - Eftimie, etc.) cannot prevent us from identifying it. Incidentally, let's remember that Gh. Eminovici himself will often appear in documents as Iminovici, for example in the Moldovan ruler's decree awarding him the "căminar" title. Starting from the rarity of the name, which must be taken into account, and adding the fact that the bookbinder's baptismal name is purely Romanian, as well as the language in which he expresses himself, we can justifiably assume that this Vasile Iminovici from Blaj and Vasile Eminovici from Bucovina descend from a common ancestor. However, unlike his cousins ​​from Bucovina, we see that this Vasile Iminovici from Blaj also has an unusual addition -- Rați --, of course a nickname, which intrigues. [...] A researcher of our old patronymics notes that "Raț" [proununced Ratz] or "Rați" is a common nickname in Transylvania, developed from the Hungarian appellative "Racz" [pronounced Ratz], which means "Serb". Therefore, "Rați", from the tail of the name of that bookbinder from Blaj, is a nickname that suggests the ethnic origin of its bearer; so that his full name must actually be read" Vasile Eminovici - the Serb! An indication -- one would say -- as clear as possible that the cupbearer Sion was not mistaken in his statement and that therefore the origin of the Eminovici, in general, had to be sought in Serbia, where we saw that the patronymic Jeminović could be formed so easily. From Serbia, then, this patronymic could arrive together with its bearers in Transylvania, where among the Transylvanian people he received the addition "Rați" -- the onomastic proof of his origin -- and eventually arrived in Bucovina, where, with the full Romanianization, he lost his nickname, remaining simply Iminovici or Eminovici, to the confusion of later biographers...

Ion Roșu
"Legend and truth in the biography of M. Eminescu (Origins)" - (pages 54-56)
===================

It must be said however that there is no testimony or documentary evidence to support the assumption that the Eminovici family from Bucovina descended from an Iminovici ancestor from Transylvania. Eminescu himself wrote in a newspaper article, republished in his Complete Works, that he is not a Transylvanian and no one from his family was from Transylvania. It is only an assumption that Petrea Iminovici/Eminovici would have been born in Blaj, and one of his sons, Vasile Eminovici, would have migrated to Bucovina and would be Eminescu's grandfather.

In addition to that, in the 4 civil status registers from Blaj (1895-1906) now available on the archival portal, no Iminovici/Eminovici can be found. But in the older archives mentioned in Ion Roșu's book they do appear.
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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #235 : 14 Марта 2026, 20:31:41 »
PART 3

ETYMOLOGY OF THE NAME EMINOVICI
GENETIC MATCHES WITH NAMES DERIVED FROM EMIN

The Eminovici name is clearly foreign, Turkish-Serbian, where the root "Emin" is Turkish, and the ending "ovici" is Serbian. Taking into account that I have seen many names from the Western Balkans since I started the genealogy research, Eminovici does not seem to me to be a Serbian name, but a Bosnian one, because it reminds me of the names of some Serbs who converted to Islam in Bosnia. These converts sometimes abandoned their original name and took a Turkish or Arabic name, for example "Šaban" (pronounced "Shaban"), "Bešir" (pronounced "Beshir"), "Muho" / "Mušo" (diminutives of Muhamed) and why not, "Emin" (meaning "trustworthy, honest man"). Even if they changed their religion, they didn't change their language, so their children would be called "Šabanović", "Beširović", "Muhović" / "Mušović", "Eminović". Most of those with the name Eminović on LocateFamily.com have surnames used only by Muslims (Adis, Salih, Mehmed, Fadil, Semir, Husein, Mustafa, Safet, Izet, etc.).

There are men with haplogroup I-FGC22054 (sub-branch of I-FGC22061) who have Serbian, Montenegrin or Bosnian Muslim paternal ancestors, obviously Serbs who converted to Islam during the Ottoman occupation in the Middle Ages. Their names are: Šabanović, Erović, Kajević, Mušović.

My father has a match (16 cM) on Ancestry named Emina K-evic, where the root K is a common name among Serbs and other Slavic peoples. Her ancestors (Balagic, Reis, and K-evic) are from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IXDzSoGOOxMHcaRUGLga-zL8gHtZvVW4/view?usp=sharing

There is also a match on MyHeritage called Emina, whose ancestors' names are: Bulić, Hazirović, Omerović, Zoranić. Of these, Hazirović and Omerović are Arabo-Serbian names, the root being Arabic, and the ending Serbian, which suggests that Emina is of the Muslim religion.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15XHlbbRLIGvu1MuZqDGa4Gp9jkaHEkPt/view?usp=sharing

Two men of Albanian origin are matches on MyHeritage and have the last name Emini, without being related to each other.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZPEwlfG78_8J1VIw50PxiItXg_3q9lbO/view?usp=sharing

Finally, there are two matches for me on 23andMe with names derived from Emin.

Emina P. (grandparents from Mostar and Trebinje, Bosnia and Herzegovina)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Db_4rzH1pLetGxXt6OSlUz9dkbuaN2qe/view?usp=sharing

A. Eminagic (does not give genealogical information, but based on common matches he is probably Bosnian; has the intermediate haplogroup N-P189.2)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GP-7q1GFgwA33pY12RWjJb-Trbu72C8F/view?usp=sharing

It is obvious that the Emin names and its derivatives are encountered in the Western Balkans.

It's difficult to say the religion of Eminescu's ancestor named Eminović. At first sight it would appear that he was a Muslim, bearing in mind that the vast majority, if not all, who now bear the name Eminović are Muslims. But there are also exceptions among those with Turkish-Serbian or Arabo-Serbian surnames, for example those from the Abazović branch (I-FT36856) of haplogroup I-FGC22061 are orthodox christians, although the name Abazović, according to the etymology supported by an administrator of the Poreklo forum, derives from the Arabic word "Abbas" meaning "lion" (Abbas + ović = Abasović = Abazović). The name would have been received due to bravery in battle alongside the Turks in Anatolia. The first name "Abas" is still used today in Bosnia-Herzegovina. There are two possibilities in the case of a name of Turkish or Arabic origin associated with the Christian religion. A boy or a man could have received as a nickname an Arabic or Turkish word used by the local population, and that nickname would have later become his family name, without him changing his religion. Then it is also possible that the descendant of a man converted to Islam returned to Orthodox Christianity, but without changing the surname received by his ancestor upon conversion to Islam. As a result, the ancestor of Eminescu who came to Transylvania could very well be called Eminović and have been an Orthodox Christian.

As for the city of Blaj, the association with it also involves a religious aspect.

================
{automatic translation}

The first documentary attestation regarding Blaj dates from 1252, the year in which count Herbord bought the domain "from the joining together of the Târnave rivers", domain hereinafter referred to as "villa Herbordi". In 1313, Herbord's son, Blasius, became master of that estate. The name of Blaj comes from the name of the owner, Blasius, who in turn took the name from Saint Blasius (Vlasie). Over time, Blaj was referred to in Latin as villa Blasii, and then in Hungarian translation as Balázsfalva (Blasius's village), respectively in German Blasendorf, a name that became Bluesendref in the Saxon dialect.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaj#Istorie
===============

Coincidentally or not, St. Blasius is the spiritual patron of Dubrovnik (formerly Ragusa), which I believe is where the Norman ancestor who brought the I-FGC22045 haplogroup to the Balkans lived.

==============
{automatic translation}

Blasius (in Latin variant Blasius, in Slavic variant Vlasie) (b. 3rd century AD, Sivas, Turkey - d. 316 AD, Sivas, Turkey) was a bishop in Sebasteia (Greater Armenia), today Sivas in Turkey. He is celebrated as a saint in the Catholic Church and in the Orthodox Church. The name in Romanian could be "Saint Vlach from Sebasteia" because in Albanian and Croatian his name means Vlach.

His relics were brought in 855 to the Holy Roman Empire and placed in the Monastery of St. Blasien, which later gave the name to the town of Sankt Blasien in Baden-Württemberg. Blasiu de Sebastia is also patron of the city of Dubrovnik and patron of the Church of St. Vlach from Scupia (Skopje), Macedonia.

The name of the municipality of Blaj is attested since 1313 as villa Blasii, Blasiu's village, in Hungarian Balázsfalva.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasiu_de_Sebastia
============

Finally, another coincidence, or not, is the fact that my father has a small match (7 cM) on Ancestry called M. Damian, whose paternal grandmother was called Maria Muntean and was from Blaj. It is the only match on Ancestry with ancestors from there, as can be seen from the screenshot below, where I only searched for matches with ancestors from Blaj.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FyFWr33b4EBi63AA4wrWUaYAXlZXFQ6M/view?usp=sharing (match)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F9wG649_lcelvXYDXOZxUzPKLHkU8EKv/view?usp=sharing (tree)
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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #236 : 14 Марта 2026, 20:32:36 »
PART 4

THE INVENTION OF EMINESCU'S ORIGIN FROM BANAT

Ion Roșu considers the hypothesis of Eminescu's Serbian origin as plausible, but unacceptable, based on two arguments, the second being the main one. Then he will present his own theory.

1) The first names of those with the surname Iminovici are autochthonous (Iovul, Ion, Gheorghe, Iosif, Petru, etc.) and not Serbian (Iovan, Milutin, Miloš, Zdravko, Blagoje, etc.).

2) The Iminovici families from Transylvania (Blaj, Vad, Rășinari, Cisnădie) were of the Greek-Catholic religion, as can be seen from an article published in 1976 by Dimitrie Vatamaniuc, a critic and literary historian specialized in Eminescu's work. Ion Roșu claims that if the Iminovici families had been of Serbian origin, they would have remained Orthodox, because the Serbs were privileged in the Austro-Hungarian empire, having an Orthodox patriarchate in Sremski Karlovci (near Novi Sad, in Vojvodina), on which the other peoples of the Orthodox religion in the empire depended. As a result, he would not have needed to convert to Catholicism to gain privileges. Moreover, Ion Roșu also claims that the emigration of some Iminovici men from Transylvania to Bucovina was done precisely so that they would not be forced to convert to Catholicism, because all the Iminovici/Eminovici families in Bucovina are Orthodox.

Ion Roșu's theory about the origin of Eminescu is as follows: A man from the Banat region occupied by the Ottomans would have received the nickname "Emin", which became in the popular pronunciation "Imin". Then the name would have been Slavicized into "Iminovici", a name with which three of his descendants would have migrated to Blaj, because there they could send their children to school in their native language, a school established and administered by the Transylvanian Greek-Catholic church, which would also justify the subsequent conversion from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.

================
{automatic translation}

So, the history of Eminescu's parents' name finally becomes clear. It begins with a first ancestor from Banat, nicknamed "Imin(u)", born around 1675, during the Turkish occupation, whose son, ordained priest around 1730, became, under the Serbian hierarchy in the church, the first Iminovici. And as the era of transformation of names such as "Al lui Iminu [Child of Iminu]" into "Iminovici" had also begun to be the era of their fixation in documents, this patronymic of Slavic appearance could thus be preserved unaltered over the years, until, in a moment of happy inspiration, the poet decided to finally adapt it to our onomastics, changing it to Eminescu.

Ion Roșu
"Legend and truth in the biography of M. Eminescu (Origins)" - (page 104)
=============

The biggest problem with Ion Roșu's theory about Eminescu's supposed Banat origin, is the fact that the Eminovici or Iminovici surnames are not found at all in the Banat censuses. It is only an assumption of the author, which has no documentary basis, because he did not research the archives in Banat, or if he researched them, he does not say it in the book, because they did not support his theory. Ion Roșu mentions at page 115 of the book that he visited the state archives in Suceava, but he does not say whether he also visited those in Timișoara, as he should have done.

My opinion is that Ion Roșu really wanted to find an autochthonous origin for Eminescu, given that the name Eminovici is foreign. For this he invented the following events, which are purely speculative, their existence not being proven:

1) a man from Banat was nicknamed "Emin"
2) the popular pronunciation changed the nickname to "Imin"
3) the nickname turned into a family name
4) the surname was Slavicized in "Iminovici"
5) Iminovici's sons migrated from Banat to Blaj, where a Iovul Iminovits is recorded in 1747, and then other Iminovits appear in the documents, descendants of those who supposedly migrated there.
« Последнее редактирование: 15 Марта 2026, 19:02:49 от abmunteanu »

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #237 : 14 Марта 2026, 20:33:57 »
PART 5

THE REJECTION OF THE BANAT HYPOTHESIS OF EMINESCU'S ORIGIN

Strangely enough, Ion Roșu did not realize that his theory is easy to disprove, because the name Iminovici can only be found in the archives of Transylvania, but not in those of Banat, where he would have come from. Unfortunately, the Wikipedia article uncritically takes up Ion Roșu's theory, which has absolutely no basis. The firmness with which Ion Roșu enunciates his theory cannot not take the place of documentary evidence, but some were convinced by it, so they repeat Ion Roșu's assumptions on the Internet without verifying them. The Wikipedia entry for Mihai Eminescu cites precisely these "sources" (Ion Roșu's book and newspaper articles that presents it), which have no value.

Another strange thing is that Ion Filipciuc, writer and literary historian who wrote several books about Eminescu, was also convinced of the existence of persons named Iminovici in Banat, who are actually not mentioned anywhere, but invented by Ion Roșu. This is how the myth of Eminescu's Banat origin continues to spread.

============
{automatic translation}

[...] in the village named "Călineștii lui Cuparencu", Mihail Eminescu's grandfather was registered in 1806 with the name Iaminovici, and in Banat, those suspected to be the poet's ancestors were called Iminovici.

"Mihai Eminescu, the absolutely unknown Romanian" by Ion Filipciuc (2017), p. 364
https://biblioteca-digitala.ro/reviste/Acta-Musei-Maramorosiensis/dl.asp?filename=13-Acta-Musei-Maramorosiensis-XIII-2017_346.pdf
=============

Moreover, Ala Sainenco (former professor of Literature at the University of Bălți, Republic of Moldova and current director of the Ipotești Memorial – National Center for Studies “Mihai Eminescu”) makes the same mistake in taking Ion Roșu at his word, regarding the alleged Banat origin of Iovul Iminovici. However, she adds another source, namely the conference held by politician Ioan Rațiu in 1912 in Blaj, who also did not provide any evidence to support his claim that the Iminovici from Blaj were originally from Banat. It is amazing how professionals in literature allow themselves to be convinced by non-professionals.

================
In 1804, or earlier, Vasile Eminovici moved from Transylvania, from the Blaj region, to Călineștii lui Cuparencu in Bucovina, just as around 1736, his ancestors, with the name Iminovits, came from Banat to Blaj.

In the conference held at the Society of Romanian Craftsmen in Blaj, on March 17, 1912, Dr. Ioan Raţiu recorded the arrival of Romanian colonists from Banat (but also from other parts of the country) in Blaj, which would become an authentically “Romanian” city (…) only after the Romanian bishopric moved here from Făgăraş”, in 1737. Ioan Inocenţiu Micu Klein, “the founder of Blaj, of Romanian Blaj”, “brought Romanian colonists from all over, especially industrialists and merchants, giving them land and a place to live, for minimal taxes. Hence the name of "taxaliști" [taxalists], which was given to these inhabitants, who, along with the serfs, are the oldest inhabitants in Blaj”. 5 years after Micu Klein’s arrival, Blaj was elevated to the rank of opid. Among the first thirty-one families, through which "the city of Blaj gradually rose", Ioan Raţiu lists, first in the list, the family of Iovul Iminovits (Raţiu 70/1912). Iovul Iminovits' name is also mentioned in the Conscriptio taxalistarum in fundo curiali Balasfalva commorantium (the Census from 1747), with the specification that he owned half a house, for which he paid 5 florins (Răduțiu 1966: 297).

Iovul Iminovits is missing from the list of Romanian families from 1726, proof that he came, along with other Romanians, at the call of Bishop Micu Klein, his emigration from Banat being caused, according to Ion Roșu, also by the Turkish-Austrian war, to which is added “the plague epidemic that broke out towards the end of the war, as well as the tightening of the social and religious oppression to which the Romanian population was traditionally subjected” (Roșu 89: 107). Iovul Iminovits’ name is also missing from Conscriptio taxalistarum in oppido Balasfalva commorantium eorum que facultatum et taxarum (the Census from 1772). Instead, in this census, other taxalists Iminovits appear: Sztan (through his widow); Pavel with his sons, Szalavestru, aged 4, and Vonu, aged two; the brothers Sivan (20 years old), Juan [Iuan] (16 years old) and Petru (18 years old) (Răduțiu 1966: 298-304). Settled in Blaj, in the localities near Blaj or – we must admit – remaining in their native localities, the Iminovits, along with other inhabitants, sent their children to the few schools founded in Blaj.

Ala Sainenco: Din Blaj la Călinești. Comentarii la „aventura în necunoscut” a lui Vasile Iminovits
[From Blaj to Călinești. Comments on Vasile Iminovits' "adventure into the unknown"]
https://www.diacronia.ro/ro/indexing/details/A31799/pdf
================

In his speech, Ioan Rațiu said that Blaj "would become an authentically "Romanian" city (…) only after the Romanian bishopric from Făgăraș moved here". It's really that hard to take into account the simplest option, namely that alongside the church institution several families from Făgăraș also moved to Blaj, among whom could there have been a family called Iminovici, Greek Catholics, who then sent their children to the newly established school in Blaj? The smooth functioning of an institution is ensured by its people. When the institution is moved to another location, the people (along with their families) who are indispensable to the functioning of the institution must also be moved. Since Iovul Iminovits is not present in the 1726 census in Blaj, but appears in the 1747 one, it seems logical that he came to Blaj in 1737, with the move of the Greek-Catholic archdiocese from Făgăraş to Blaj. It is therefore possible that he originated from Făgăraş.

===============
The Archdiocese of Făgăraș and Alba Iulia (Latin: Archidiocesis Fagarasiensis et Albae Iuliensis Romenorum) is the largest diocese of the Romanian Greek Catholic Church, both in terms of geographical area and number of believers. The diocese was established in 1721 in Făgăraș, moved in 1737 to Blaj and elevated to the rank of archdiocese on November 16, 1854.
[...]
The first bishop of Făgăraș was Ioan Giurgiu Patachi. Bishop Inocențiu Micu-Klein moved the episcopal seat from Făgăraș to Blaj, through an exchange of properties carried out in 1737. The Holy Trinity Cathedral in Blaj was consecrated in 1754 by Bishop Petru Pavel Aron, the founder of the first elementary school with teaching in Romanian of all time ("community school").

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arhieparhia_de_F%C4%83g%C4%83ra%C8%99_%C8%99i_Alba_Iulia
===============

But even if the origin of the Iminovici family from Blaj was found, this does not mean that the Eminovici from Bukovina have the same origin, since there is no genealogical evidence linking the two families.
« Последнее редактирование: 15 Марта 2026, 19:03:24 от abmunteanu »

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #238 : 14 Марта 2026, 20:38:27 »
PART 6

THE ORIGIN OF THE IMINOVICI FAMILY FROM THE VILLAGE OF VAD (FĂGĂRAȘ).
POSSIBLE CONNECTION WITH THE TRANSYLVANIAN MILITARY BORDER AND THE BUNJEVCI

So, Ion Roșu's theory is based on the existence of Iovul Iminovici (written as "Iovul Iminovits") in 1747 in Blaj, who appears in the register as a "taxalist", meaning someone who came from elsewhere and settled in Blaj where he was given land, for which he had to pay a tax. It would have been logical to look for the origin of this Iminovici from Blaj in the villages of Făgăraș, because of the known tendency of landless people from the villages to migrate to the city. Iovul Iminovici is, however, considered by Ion Roșu to have come from Banat, without any documentary evidence for this.

Moreover, Ion Roșu claims that the Eminovici were not originally from Făgăraş, because they do not appear in the censuses there before 1747. Indeed, the name Iminovici/Eminovici is not found in the censuses of Făgăraș made between 1601-1680, published in the 2 volumes called "Urbariile Țării Făgărașului" [Censuses of the Făgăraș Land], which obviously also contain the censuses from the village of Vad. However, the name "Sîrbu" [the Serb] is found, very rarely, which suggests a probably distant Serbian origin of the respective men: Ztancsiul Zirbul (Stanciu the Serb), Radul Zirbul, Thoma Zirbul, Juuon Zirbul (Ion the Serb), Idumir Zirbul (Idomir the Serb), Opra Sirbul (Oprea the Serb).


================
{automatic translation}

Also in the 1772/73 urbarium [census] we find another ancestor of Eminescu from Blaj, namely Sălăvăstru, the son of Pavel Iminovici, born around 1768. According to his age, he, like Dumitru, is part of the third generation of Iminovici, in which we will also include a George Iminovici from Vad (Făgăraş), dead, as evidenced by the civil status conditions, on July 4, 1857, aged 95, so born in 1762. The presence in Vad of this Iminovici, and after him and of others with the same surname, raised the question, as we remember, of whether the origin of the Eminovici family should be sought in Făgăraș. However, as we have clearly proven that Banat is the source of the poet's ancestors, and Blaj is the place of their first documentary attestation, we can safely conclude that this George Iminovici from Vad must have originally been a men from Blaj immigrated, we don't know when and for what reasons, to Făgăraş, where, after getting married, he perpetuated his surname to this day. In the same position, there are other Iminovici from Transylvania, namely those from Rășinari and Cisnădie, as well as from other neighboring localities, they are more than likely the descendants of the three Iminovici brothers from Banat, who immigrated to Blaj.

Ion Roșu
"Legend and truth in the biography of M. Eminescu (Origins)" - (page 112)
================

In the previous message I showed that my father has 2 autosomal matches with Cosgarea ancestors from the village of Vad, and one of them also has Strîmbu ancestors from the same village. In this message I showed that my father has 2 matches with Iminovici ancestors from Vad. The fact that the surnames Cosgarea and Iminovici are rare suggests that my father's ancestor was part of the Muntean family from the village of Vad. In the archives of the village of Vad, the surnames Muntean, Cosgarea, Strîmbu and Iminoviciu (the Transylvanian form of Iminovici) can be found, as can be seen in the register of marriages between 1895-1906, which also has an index for easy finding of names.

https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=10257663

The name Iminoviciu is also found in the registers from Şinca Veche and Rășinari, but the largest number is in Vad, which suggests that the family's origin is in Vad. Could the Iminovici family have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup? Given the Bosnian-sounding name, this is plausible.

https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cautare-text/?ts=iminoviciu&pg=1&pgs=100&cs=1&srt=0&sro=1

I have already said that my father's ancestor could be an Austro-Hungarian officer or soldier from the Western Balkans transferred from the Croatian military border to the Transylvanian military border in the Făgăraș area. The many autosomal matches with ancestors born in the territory between Croatia's present-day borders with Slovenia and Bosnia suggest such a hypothesis, as this region was the site of many battles between the Habsburg and Ottoman empires. When the Ottomans began to withdraw from it, some of the military from the Croatian frontier were more than likely moved to other frontiers, such as the Transylvanian one. But as the name Muntean is not Slavic, there was also a name change.

===============
{automatic translation}

In 1765, the village [Vad] was completely militarized and was part of the 11th Company of the 1st Border Regiment from Orlat until 1851, when it was disbanded.
[...]
The first mentions of school institutions in Vad date back to 1820, the first known teacher being Toader Damian, who held lessons in his own home and taught the students to read. This first teacher, who we know was active in Vad, died in 1858. A teacher who followed him was Iacob Cocișiu, who also gave his lessons at home. The two teachers did not receive a salary, but they were exempted from the military service they had to fulfill, knowing that Vad was a border village and the border guards were free people, but they had to carry weapons and do military service.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vad,_Bra%C8%99ov
=============

I talked about the Transylvanian Military Border, the Orlat Regiment and its leader, Josip Šišković in the message linked below:

https://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,14941.msg624058.html#msg624058

General Josip Šišković was from Bačka, Vojvodina and belonged to the ethnic group called Bunjevci (pronounced Bunievtsi), consisting of Vlach converts to Catholicism, originally from Western Herzegovina, who later migrated to Dalmatia and then to Vojvodina. The Bunjevci said they were descended from the Normans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunjevci

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_%C5%A0i%C5%A1kovi%C4%87

I hypothesized that my father's ancestor could be part of the Bunjevci group ever since I was posting on the Poreklo forum, when I didn't know about the Croatian and Transylvanian Military Borders. It would not be surprising if Josip Šišković brought trusted officers and soldiers from his ethnic group with him to the Transylvanian military border. It is possible that Šišković's appointment as commander of the regiment was also made because the regiment initially had many soldiers from the Western Balkans, with whom the commander could communicate in their native language, without using German.

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg189695#msg189695

Surnames of Vlach, Albanian and Muslim (Turkish or Arabic) origin were present in the Bunjevci families. A Catholic Iminovici/Eminovici could have been a member of the Bunjevci group.

==========
According to modern ethnological studies, Bunjevci are a South Slavic people with some elements of non-Slavic ancestry, with partial Vlach-Arbanasi anthroponymy structure (20%; also surnames of Muslim and non-Bunjevci Croatian origin shows a continuous process of assimilation of unrelated families originating from Vlach-Croatian ethnic symbiosis [...].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunjevci#Origins
==========
« Последнее редактирование: 15 Марта 2026, 19:03:48 от abmunteanu »

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #239 : 14 Марта 2026, 20:39:51 »
PART 7

THE DISCOVERY OF EMINESCU'S ORIGIN BY FINDING THE Y HAPLOGROUP

At the origin of the Eminovici family could be an ancestor from the Western Balkans who came to Transylvania, with the difference that the name was not changed. The truth about Eminescu's paternal origin is not easy to find out, since there are no confirmed male descendants of Gheorghe Eminovici, the poet's father.

Although it is unlikely that it will happen, it is possible to exhume and test the remains from the family tomb in Ipotești, where several of its members were buried, as can be seen from the article below.


============
{automatic translation}

At the "Mihai Eminescu Memorial" in Ipoteşti, there are several objectives, which together form a museum complex, unique in our country: the childhood home of Mihai Eminescu, the library with a conference room, the museum with exhibits about the life and work of the poet, an open-air amphitheater, the church of St. Archangels Michael and Gabriel, the family church dedicated to the Voivode Saints, next to which are the graves of the Eminovici family.
[...]
Judging more logically, we can say that there are two rows of graves there. The first row is made up of the graves of the two small children [Maria and Vasile Eminovici], of Vasile Iurașcu [Eminescu's maternal grandfather] and of Iorgu [Eminovici]. The second row of graves consists of that of Raluca [Iurașcu, Eminescu's mother], followed by that of Gheorghe Eminovici and Niculae [Eminovici], as they are found today.

https://luceafarul.net/mormintele-familiei-gh-eminovici-si-a-stolnicului-vasile-iurascu
============

So Ala Sainenco, the director of the Mihai Eminescu memorial complex in Ipotești, effectively has a genealogical treasure in her own backyard. If DNA testing of the remains of Eminescu's relatives is done, obviously in collaboration with professional historians and geneticists from our country, Ala Sainenco will be the one to be praised for the initiative to discover Eminescu's true origin.

Today there are families with the name Iminovici or Eminovici, but it is not known if they are related on the paternal side to Eminescu. Ion Roșu discussed all the children of Vasile Eminovici, the poet's grandfather, in the subchapter "Frații și surorile căminarului [Brothers and sisters of the chamberlain]" (p. 133). According to research, there would be no descendants on the male line. Those who today bear the name Eminovici in Bucovina would have inherited it on the maternal line.

It can be seen below that the contemporary Iminovici families are found in Făgăraș and the USA.

https://www.locatefamily.com/E/EMI/EMINOVICI-1.html

It can be seen below that the contemporary Eminovici families can be found in Craiova (Dolj county), Sf. Gheorghe (Covasna county), Constanța, Sibiu, Suceava, Tecuci (Galați county), Onești (Bacău county), Bucharest and the USA. Not even a single Eminovici family can be found in Banat.

https://www.locatefamily.com/I/IMI/IMINOVICI-1.html

The distribution of the contemporary Iminovici and Eminovici families does not overlap, thus being another argument that they were not related.

If the remains of the poet's male relatives were to be tested, the haplogroup found by the Big Y test could be compared with that of some Eminović families from the Western Balkans. On the Poreklo site there are several articles about villages where the name Eminović appears (written as Еминовић in the Serbian Cyrillic script).

https://www.poreklo.rs/tag/eminovic/

The only Eminović whose Y haplogroup is now known is a Serbian citizen from the village of Sjenica (pronounced Sienitsa), which as stated in the article below is a multi-ethnic village. The intermediate haplogroup discovered by 23andMe is R-CTS3402, therefore belonging to the R1a branch, considered to be of Slavic origin. It is interesting that the association with the state city of Ragusa (present-day Dubrovnik) appears again, Sjenica being one of the villages through which the road used by the Ragusan merchants passed, merchants who are also mentioned in Transylvania. In my opinion, it was the Martinussio family from Ragusa that had the I-FGC22045 haplogroup, and passed it to the Drobnjak tribe.

============
Sjenica (Serbian Cyrillic: Сјеница) is a town and municipality located in the Zlatibor District of southwestern Serbia, on the vast Sjenica-Pešter plateau and geographically located in the central part of Sandžak. [...] It is a multi-ethnic environment where Bosniaks, Serbs, Albanians, Montenegrins, Turks, Romani and others live. [...] Sjenica was first mentioned in 1253 as a place on the road to Dubrovnik, where merchants from Dubrovnik stopped and paid customs. [...] During the reign of the Ottoman Empire, Sjenica was used as a fortified site. On a nearby hill the Ottomans built a fortress, which was later demolished. Next to the fortress was a merchants' quarter and a few wooden residential homes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sjenica

{automatic translation}
Another [commercial] road connected Transylvania with the Adriatic, the goods being transported by the people of Ragusa (today's Dubrovnik), the most important commercial node being at Vidin.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualismul_politic_rom%C3%A2nesc#Aspectul_comercial
============
« Последнее редактирование: 15 Марта 2026, 19:04:18 от abmunteanu »

 

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