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Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« : 20 Августа 2023, 16:41:11 »
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First of all, I understand written and spoken Russian, but my current Russian writing skills are not good enough for having a conversation here. So, I will write in English, but the other forum users should write in Russian, nobody should feel obligated to answer in English to my posts. I can read the forum threads here, and if I don’t understand something I use an online translator. I have opened the thread about I-FGC22045 haplogroup here because I think that one or more of its branches could be present in Russia.
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This is the haplogroup tree on YFull:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/


As can be seen in the tree, at this time the haplogroup has three branches:

I-FGC22045*
I-FGC22052*
I-FGC22061

The asterisks at the end of the first two branches mean that the men with those haplogroups actually have another, more precise haplogroup, which remains to be established when another man with a very similar haplogroup will upload his Y-DNA result to YFull. The asterisk also appears for some men who belong to the I-FGC22061 branch. That means that at this time they cannot be associated with any of the existing branches of I-FGC22061, so they belong to branches which have to be established in the future.

The I-FGC22061 branch is much bigger than the other two and is encountered mainly in countries of former Yugoslavia (Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia). My father, Constantin Munteanu, has the I-PH3895 haplogroup, which is a branch of I-FGC22061. My father's haplogroup (discovered with the Big Y test at FTDNA) is shared with a man who has been tested in a published scientific study about Y haplogroups This man remains anonymous, only his country of origin, Serbia, is known.

My father’s family story was that the paternal ancestor with the Munteanu name came from Făgăraș, Transylvania, a region that until 1918 was part of Austria-Hungary, and had until the second half of the 20th century a sizable population of German ancestry, namely the Transylvanian Saxons. This story was confirmed by autosomal DNA testing, my father having matches from the Făgăraș area and also matches with German ancestry. The same autosomal testing has revealed matches from all the countries of former Yugoslavia and Albania, which means that my father’s ancestor has come to Transylvania from the Western Balkans.

My father’s haplogroup was at first established by FTDNA as being I-FGC33034. I searched it online and found that there was a forum thread about this haplogroup (which was later changed to I-FGC22061 by FTDNA). The thread was on the Poreklo forum, a Serbian genealogy forum, which was logical, because the majority of those tested who have the haplogroup are Serbs. The thread is named “Drobnjaks - Novljans I1>P109>FGC22045>FGC22061”, because in Serbia the majority of those with the haplogroup say that they are descendants from the Drobnjak-Novljan tribe, a medieval Serbian tribe whose founders were Vlachs. There was a lot of speculation on the thread about the I-FGC22045 haplogroup origin or about those with the haplogroup, including my father. The speculation about my father’s I-FGC22061 ancestor was understandably untrue, because they didn’t knew about the family history and someone said that for sure this ancestor had nothing to do with the Western Balkans and was probably from Macedonia. So, although I don’t speak Serbian, I decided to register in July 2021 and offer them the information that I had about my father’s ancestor and also post my own research about the haplogroup. I used Google Translate to read the forum posts in Serbian.

At first I posted all my messages in French and English, because I thought that maybe some Frenchman with a Norman ancestor would search his haplogroup (closely related to I-FGC22061, supposed by some as being of Norman origin) and find the forum. An usual message would begin with the French version and end with the English version. If the message was big (there was a 6000 character limit per message), then I would post at first the message in French, then the same message in English. At one point I began posting the English version first, then the French version. From February 19 2023 I posted only in English. In the last 6 months, some Poreklo forum users and moderators/admins found various ridiculous reasons to attack me and to suggest that I should not post there anymore. At the end of March 2023 I left the forum, but returned after 3 months and began posting again at the end of June. At first there were no problems, then the attacks and suggestions that I should leave had appeared again. I was unjustly banned for 7 days at the end of July, then after the ban ended I posted again a few messages and finally decided to leave a week ago of my own volition.

I will not repost here my research on the I-FGC22045 haplogroup posted on the Poreklo forum, but I will put links to the pages with my most important messages.

Page 58: My first messages
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg160667#msg160667

Pages 63-64: About my e-mail exchange with O. Siryi, the man with the I-FGC22052 haplogroup. Also discussed the possibility of him being a descendant of a Serb who settled in New Serbia [Новая Сербия], a region in the Russian Empire.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg174603#msg174603

Page 64: Early connections between Varangians and Vlachs as told by a runestone.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg174720#msg174720

Page 67: Hypothesis about the haplogroup arriving in the Balkans with a participant to the Norwegian Crusade.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg180424#msg180424

Page 67: Found an article in Serbian about the I1 haplogroup in which is mentioned Nikola Rašković Drobnjak (NRD), a Vlach prince who lived around 1450 CE and whose remains from Gacko (Bosnia-Herzegovina) were unearthed and tested. His Y haplogroup is a branch of I-FGC22045, but the test was only for 23 STR markers.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg181478#msg181478

Page 68: Message asking about the causes for the delay in testing the remains of NRD with a more advanced DNA test. This could offer a lot of information about the origin of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup, so the big delay (2 years) seemed strange to me. The response from a Poreklo admin was that they want to send the remains to London to be tested and there is a lot of bureaucracy involved, thus explaining the massive delay.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg181581#msg181581

Page 68: About some of my father’s Y-STR matches from FTDNA.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg181612#msg181612

Page 69: About the Y haplogroup of R. Johansson, one of the Swedes who have a haplogroup closely related to I-FGC22045. There is another message with an update on the same page.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg182095#msg182095

Page 69: My advice to the Poreklo admins to contact the Hungarian team that tested in the US the remains of the son of Matthias Corvinus, a medieval Hungarian king.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg182284#msg182284

Pages 69-70: Messages about some of my father’s autosomal matches with the name Abazi, of Albanian origin. This will lead to the Varangian Caucasian hypothesis of the origin of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg183109#msg183109

Page 70: About the tested Albanians who have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg183280#msg183280

Page 72: A series of three consecutive ones messages about the Abaza family (a branch of this family exists in Russia today). In the third message I state the Varangian Caucasian hypothesis based on Wikipedia articles about the Caspian expeditions of the Rus’.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg183965#msg183965

Page 72: My discussions with two admins of Albanian DNA Projects at FTDNA.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg184555#msg184555

Page 73: A series of message with my theory about the etymology of the name Drobnjak. I argue, based on the first mention of this name written in Latin, that the original name was Dobroneagu, a Vlach name formed from the Slavic word “Dobro” [“Good” in English] and the Vlach/Rumanian name “Neagu”.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg185233#msg185233

Page 73: My father’s autosomal matches (Ancestry and 23andMe) from Lika-Senj county, Croatia. Many have surnames identical to some Vlach families presented in a book about the 1712 census from Lika.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg185873#msg185873

Pages 73-74: First in a series of four messages about the Uskoks and the fact that the Novljan family (from the Drobnjak-Novljan name) apparently was originary from Novi Vinodoslki, a town on the Adriatic Sea coast, today in Croatia.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg185923#msg185923

Page 75: After reading an article about the Drobnjaks being caravaneers traveling from the Adriatic coast to Serbia through Montenegro, I discovered on the map two toponyms (place names) in Montenegro linked to the Drobnjak-Novljan tribe which reinforce my theory about the original name being Dobroneagu, connected to the Făgăraș Mountains where there is a Dobroneagu toponym.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg186194#msg186194

Page 75: The Teutonic hypothesis about the origin of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg186238#msg186238

Page 76: A map created by me on Google Maps with all the men who have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup and their places of origin. Also a list of my father’s autosomal matches that have ancestors with surnames identical to those present on the map.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg186514#msg186514

Page 77: A series of five messages with the Transylvanian Saxon hypothesis about the origin of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. Also the first mention by me of the fact that the Vlachs were the principal carriers (transporters) of salt in the Balkans.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg189609#msg189609

Page 77: A series of messages until the end of the page about the Bunjevci, an ethnic group (Catholic Vlachs) from the Adriatic coast and their connection to the Normans.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg189695#msg189695

Page 78: New message received by me from the admin of an Albanian DNA Project. Then my conclusion about the Saxon hypothesis.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg189846#msg189846

Page 78: A series of two messages about the Gothic/Gepidic/Herulic hypothesis about the origin of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg189847#msg189847

Page 78: Two messages about the Scandinavian etymology proposed by me for the name of the Kvarner Gulf (Bay) in Croatia.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg189871#msg189871

Page 79: Two messages with my e-mail discussion with Siryi (I-FGC22052), who told me that his paternal ancestor was actually named Chumak [Чумак], a name that means “salt trader”. The connection with the Vlachs, who were also salt traders, becomes evident. It must be said that my messages were initially on the page 80, but now are on page 79. See below the explanation for this.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg190503#msg190503

Pages 79-80-81: These are three very important pages, but unfortunately many messages from the pages 79 and 80 were deleted or edited by a forum administrator, and the page 81 has completely disappeared from the forum. What triggered this action from the admin had no connection to me, but as a consequence some of my messages have been deleted or heavily edited. The original pages can however be read in the forum archive linked below. What happened? A new Big Y test result has arrived from a Serb named Jurjević. In a private discussion with a forum user, Jurjević has said that according to his family history his father born in Zadar (today's Croatia) is descending from the Giorgi/Zorzi family, a very important medieval family from Venice, living also in the towns of the Adriatic coast. The family story was posted on the forum by the user, not by Jurjević. Immediately other forum users started to mock Jurjević’s family story and say that it is fake. I was the only one who said that the story is plausible and must be investigated. And I did investigate it using the Wikipedia articles about the Zorzi/Giorgi family.

Page 80: Two messages about the Zorzi/Giorgi Venetian family, the second one containing 5 arguments that support the family story of Jurjević. The page must be read from the archive hosted on my Google Drive account.

Page 81: Another two messages about the Zorzi/Giorgi, that must be read from the forum archive. Then my final message on the forum. The first part is about another family from the Adriatic coast, the Bona family, linked by marriage with the Zorzi/Giorgi family, which created the Bona-Giorgi family (Bunić-Djurdjević in Serbo-Croatian). The second part is about my opinion that the I-FGC22045 haplogroup was linked in the past with the salt production and trade, and this could explain its spread in the Balkans and beyond. I also spoke about the important role played by Venice in the Middle Ages in the salt trade and about a presumed connection of the Bona/Bunić family with the Normans. This final message in two parts is present now on the page 80 of the forum.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg190725#msg190725

All the messages mocking Jurjević’s family story were later deleted by an admin, which is understandable, because they were mean. But my messages speaking about the plausability of Jurjević’s family story with regard to the Zorzi/Giorgi family were also deleted, which makes no sense, because they supported Jurjević family story. Of course, they can still be read in the archive, which contains the pages 79-81 in their original form with the deleted messages.

All the pages (58-81) from the “Drobnjak-Novljan I1” thread from the Poreklo forum in which I have posted messages are included the ZIP archive linked below. The files are in HTML format and the archive is hosted on my Google Drive account, where all the uploaded files are automatically scanned, so it is safe to open.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oLtcJ67IN7oml01-9Tk2i6L1hs_wp_7W/view?usp=sharing

Оффлайн abmunteanuАвтор темы

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #1 : 23 Августа 2023, 20:04:06 »
I will make in this message a summary of the current state of the research on haplogroup I-FGC22045. Those that want to read my argumentation in detail should read my posts from the Poreklo forum, linked in the previous message.

1) There are three branches of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup:

I-FGC22061: South Slavic
I-FGC22052: North Slavic (very probably of Balkan origin)
I-FGC22045*: Albanian

It is not known when the three branches have split from the main branch.

2) The South Slavic branch (I-FGC22061) :
Is associated with the Drobnjak-Novljan tribe. Apparently this tribe was originally named Novljani and came from the town of Travnik in Bosnia to an area containing the towns of Nikšić, Šavnik, Žabljak and Pljevlja in Montenegro. According to the tradition, the founders of the tribe were Vlachs. The tribe has currently three brotherhoods, named Novljani, Useljenici, Uskoci.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novljani
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs

2.1) The Uskoci (Uskoks in English) :
They were in the past a multi-ethnic population that lived on the Adriatic sea coast and participated as guerilla troops in the fight (particularly at sea) against the Ottoman empire, that wanted to occupy the Adriatic coast. The Uskoks were somewhat the Vikings of the Adriatic sea. They settled in 1520 in the area surrounding the town of Senj, Croatia. They were joined there by refugees from other regions threatened by the Ottoman advance in the Balkans, so the multi-ethnic character of this population was increased. In 1618 the Uskoks were expelled from Senj and went to settle inland, far from the Adriatic coast. In the 19th century an Italian historian wrote a book about the Istrian peninsula, after visiting the sea coast. In the book he said that the Novljan family was originary from “Novi, internal Croatia”, which very probably means the town of Novi Vinodolski, a town situated on the Adriatic Sea coast, 25 km north of Senj.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskoks

2.2) The original name of the Drobnjak tribe :
The first member of the Drobnjak-Novljan tribe mentioned in the archives was named “Bratigna Dobrognago” and appears in a legal document written in Latin in the year 1285 in Ragusa (today Dubrovnik, Croatia). The town of Ragusa and its surroundings were under Venetian suzerainty from 1205 to 1358. The official language was Latin, so this is why the name Bratigna Dobrognago was written in Latin. Its translation in Serbo-Croatian is “Братиња Доброњаго” or “Bratinja Dobronjago”. In Russian it would be written “Братиня Доброньаго”. I demonstrated that the original surname (family name) was probably “Dobroneagu”, a name that is encountered today as the name of a river and its surrounding area in the Făgăraș Mountains in Transylvania, Rumania. In time, as the Dobroneagu Vlachs became Slavicized, the name Dobroneagu was later changed to Drobnjak, much easier to pronounce.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A2ul_Dobroneagu

2.3) The connection with the Adriatic Sea coast :
The first Drobnjak was mentioned in Dubrovnik, on the Adriatic Sea coast, and two brotherhoods (Novljani, Uskoks) of the Drobnjak tribe also have the origin on the Adriatic coast. This origin is confirmed by the fact that my father has autosomal matches from the county of Lika-Senj, Croatia, and has matches with the ancestor surname Uskoković (derived from Uskok). The presence of the Drobnjaks on the Adriatic coast is logical, because they were caravaneers, transporting goods (including salt) from the towns of the Adriatic coast (Dubrovnik, Croatia and Kotor, Montenegro) to Prijepolje in Serbia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubrovnik
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senj

3) The Albanian branch (I-FGC22045*) :
There are ethnic Albanians (from Albania and Macedonia) who have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup, discovered after testing at FTDNA or YSEQ. Unfortunately, until now, none of them has bought the Big Y test at FTDNA. There is a single Albanian on YFull with the I-FGC22045* haplogroup, who was tested at Dante Labs. If other Albanians will be tested with a thorough Y-DNA test, the Albanian branch will receive a new name.

4) The North Slavic branch (I-FGC22052) :
At this time a single man from Petropavlivka, Dnipropetrovsk Oblast [Петропавловка (Петропавловский район, Днепропетровская область)] was tested, and he has the I-FGC22052 haplogroup. His true paternal name was Chumak [Чумак], which means “salt trader”. My opinion is that his haplogroup is of Balkan origin and is linked to the region of Galicia (a former province of Austria-Hungary, now divided between Poland and Ukraine), where in the past there were salt mines and salt production facilities. The biggest one, from Krakow, was owned by a Venetian merchant (see the last part of this message).

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumak

5) The North-Germanic (Scandinavian) origin of I-FGC22045 :
It is based on the fact that the most closely related Y haplogroups are in Sweden. The sister branch of I-FGC22045 is the one named I-FGC22046* on YFull and I-FT216475 on FTDNA (where it has a sub-branch named I-Y90931). The men who have these haplogroups on FTDNA (Rolf Johansson, A.K. Bergqvist and A. Welander) are from southern Sweden. The paternal ancestor of Rolf Johansson (I-FT216475) was from Gladhammar, a region where there was mining activity from 1100 to 1892 (Gladhammar mines). The paternal ancestor of A.K. Bergqvist (I-Y90931) was from Sala, a town renowned for its silver mine, operating until 1908. We can see a connection of the haplogroup with mining also in the Balkans.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22046/
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-FT216475/story

6) The arrival of I-FGC22045 in the Balkans :
The problem that arises in explaining how the haplogroup arrived from Scandinavia to the Balkans is the fact that there are no intermediary stations where it could be found. These closely related haplogroups are found only in Sweden (I-FT216475/I-FGC22046*) and in the Balkans (I-FGC22045). The I-FGC22052 haplogroup is very probably of Balkan origin. That means the man with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup has left Sweden and arrived directly in the Balkans, without settling somewhere else in Europe on the way.

7) The salt and mining connection :
It was hypothesized by me after discovering an autosomal match of my father who has the surname Kramar (from Novo Selo, Bosnia-Herzegovina). This family name is derived from the word “kramar”, used by the Vlachs to designate their caravan leader. The Vlach name “Kramar” is derived from the German name “Kramer/Krämer”, which meant “traveling merchant”, which is exactly what the Vlachs were in medieval times. This German word used by the Vlachs meant that there was a very early contact between the Vlachs and the Germans, and that the Vlach caravans were supplying goods to the Germans who settled in the Balkans. These Germans, later called Saxons, first arrived in Transylvania and then spread in the Balkans where they opened and managed various mines. Some of these Saxon mines were salt mines (for example in Transylvania), and this is where the contact with the Vlachs first took place, because the Vlachs were salt traders, but also salt consumers, needing large quantities of salt for their famous cheese. The North Slavic branch (I-FGC22052) also appears to have a connection with salt mining and trading, as will be discussed below.

8 ) The Gothic/Gepidic/Herulic Hypothesis :
Is supported by the fact that the Goths (a Germanic tribe with roots in Scandinavia) were present at different times in medieval Wallachia (Buzău county, whose northern part is close to the Făgăraș Mountains) and on the Adriatic coast. There was a war between the Ostrogoths and the Byzantines in 535-540 that partially took place on the Adriatic coast. However, the Goths and the other migratory Germanic tribes have afterwards settled in western Europe, and there is no trace of I-FGC22045 there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli

9) The Varangian Caucasian Hypothesis :
Is based on my father having autosomal matches of Albanian origin having the name Abaza. Also, in the Drobnjak tribe there was a renowned Duke named Pavle Abazović, who died in a battle with the Ottomans (Turks) in 1645. The name Abazović is encountered even today in some families of Drobnjak origin and some of those who have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup claim to be direct descendants on the paternal line from Pavle Abazović (however, the only contemporary Abazović tested has the I2 haplogroup). From my research, the name Abaza comes from the name of the Abaza people, a people from the Caucasus. The Abaza name is now encountered in Albania, Montenegro, but also in Russia (Абаза). The Rus’ [Русь] sailed on the Volga river and undertook military raids on the Caspian Sea shores between 864 and 1041. On the western Caspian Sea shore is the Caucasus, where Abazinia (the land of the Abaza people) is located. The presence of the I1 haplogroup in Caucasus was discussed on the Molgen forum in another thread. We know about the presence of Abazins (Abaza people) in the Ottoman empire, including in Bosnia, some of them in high official functions. Maybe one or more could have had the I1 haplogroup inherited from the Rus’ (Varangians) and if they settled in the Balkans, they passed it to their Balkan descendants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abazins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_expeditions_of_the_Rus%27

10) The Teutonic Order [Teutonic Knights] Hypothesis :
Between 1211-1225 the historical region of Burzenland [“Țara Bîrsei” in Rumanian] from Transylvania was administered by the Teutonic Order, invited by the Hungarian king. The Teutonic Knights settled in the region numerous German colonists, who remained after the Knights were evicted by the same king who invited them. The Teutonic Order was formed in northern Germany, and the original Teutons were, according to the ancient sources, from the tip of the Jutland peninsula (Denmark) or even from the Scandinavian peninsula.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order

11) The Transylvanian Saxon Hypothesis :
The German Saxons (named Sas in both Rumanian and Serbo-Croatian) were invited in Transylvania by the Hungarian king Geza II in order to serve as guardians of the frontier, but also to develop the mining industry and the economy of the region in general. Some of them were originary from northern Germany. From Transylvania some Saxons went to Serbia, Bosnia and the Adriatic coast (where they were named Alemani, Alamani, Teotonici, Tedesi) where they settled and in time were assimilated into the local population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons

12) The Norman Hypothesis :
The haplogroup was brought to the Balkans by a Norman who participated to the Norman-Byzantine wars or to the various Crusades in which the armies passed through the Balkans (including a little known Crusade, named the Norwegian Crusade). This hypothesis is plausible, because there is another I-P109 branch in the Balkans (I-FTA86559) where there was a story in the family (from Nevesinje, Bosnia-Herzegovina) about a Norman crusader who was the founder of that family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans

13) The situation of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak (NRD) :
He was a Vlach Prince (Knez) who lived around 1450 in Gacko, Bosnia-Herzegovina. His remains were unearthed in 2018 and tested in 2020. His Y haplogroup is a branch of I-FGC22045, but he was tested ony on 23 STR markers, so the precise haplogroup is not known. The unearthing and testing were done under the management of the Poreklo society. Since 2020 nothing new has happened, the Poreklo society administrators claiming that bureaucracy is to blame for the delay in doing a more advanced Y-DNA and autosomal DNA testing. This seems plausible, but some of their excuses for the bureaucratic delay are ridiculous, for example the following quote, automatically translated from Serbian:  << [...] it is not possible to simply pack a skeleton in a suitcase, get on a plane to London (for example) and then take that skeleton straight from the suitcase to the laboratory. Apart from the fact that it would be illegal, even if a foreign laboratory wanted to process such an illegal sample (and of course they would refuse to do so), provided you managed to get it through airport control at all, such an illegally processed sample could not be released in any publication.>> It is known that you don’t need an entire skeleton in order to extract ancient DNA. A few grams of tissue are enough, collected from bones or teeth. The Denisovan DNA (30-50.000 years old) was extracted from a single finger phalanx. So, the skeleton packing in a suitcase and crossing the border with that suitcase is simply not true. I suggested another cause for the delay, namely the fear that the autosomal DNA test result would shatter the myth that from the beginning the Drobnjak tribe was pure Serbian and not multi-ethnic. They banned me for 7 days, because they said I knew that this was not true, and the cause is the bureaucracy who delays the necessary paperwork. But I don’t know what is true or not regarding NRD’s testing, because the Poreklo society maintains an extreme secrecy about this, not informing even the paying members of Poreklo, who according to the statute have the right to be informed about the activity of the society. It is a shame that such a gold mine of DNA information, that very few haplogroups have, is not utilized in order to decipher the secrets of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.

14) The Bona/Bunić Hypothesis :
A newly tested I-FGC22061 Serb, named Jurjević, said that his father was born in Zadar, Croatia (on the Adriatic coast). According to the family story, on the paternal line they are descending from the Venetian Zorzi/Giorgi family. I investigated his story, and indeed he could be descending from the “Bona-Giorgi” [”Bunić-Djurdjević” in Serbo-Croatian] family from Dubrovnik, formed by the matrimonial association of the Bona family and the Zorzi/Giorgi family. One of the early members of this family, Jan (Giovanni) Junta Bona, living in the 15th century, was a merchant from Venice, owner of Krakow saltworks and several villages in Małopolska (Lesser Poland Voivodeship). We see here the connection with Galicia, because at that time Krakow was in Galicia. This merchant married a local woman and had a daughter and two sons, all having only the first surname, Junta, discarding the Bona name (there are documents about them that can be found with FamilySearch.org). It is possible that the man with the I-FGC22052 haplogroup is a descendant of Jan Junta Bona or another a member of the Bona/Bunić family, being plausible that Jan Junta Bona has brought with him in Krakow other family members to help him with the management of the saltworks. Venice played and important role in the salt trade in the Middle Ages along the Adriatic coast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_family

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #2 : 23 Августа 2023, 20:37:48 »
Мунтяну, добро пожаловать! Вы заказывали отцу BigY? Рекомендую этот апгрейд и последующую загрузку на Yfull.com

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #3 : 24 Августа 2023, 19:02:11 »
Farroukh, thanks for the welcome.

My father has already taken the Big Y test and is present on YFull. He has the I-PH3895 haplogroup, which is a branch of I-FGC22061, the South Slavic branch of I-FGC22045.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22061/

I have uploaded only the VCF file to YFull, because I didn’t want to give another 100 dollars to FTDNA for the BAM file.

Based on the number of shared SNPs, YFull considers that my father’s common ancestor with the South Slavic (I-FGC22061) branch lived 750 years ago, the common ancestor with the North Slavic (I-FGC22052) branch lived 1000 years ago, and the common ancestor with the Albanian (I-FGC22045*) branch lived 1200 years ago. Also according to YFull, the common ancestor with the Swede having the I-FGC22046 haplogroup lived 2300 years ago. I think that this values are somewhat wrong, being set too far back in time.

My father has an Y-111 match (GD = 9 steps) from the village of Komarnica, Šavnik municipality, Montenegro. The town of Šavnik is considered the unofficial center of the Drobnjak region, where the Drobnjak tribe has always lived since coming to Montenegro. Based on this Y-111 match, it seems that my father’s ancestor has left the Western Balkans approximately 3-400 years ago. He probably went to Hungary and then he or one of his male descendants went to Transylvania in the area of Făgăraș. He may he have been a Bunjevac, a population of catholic Vlachs who mass migrated between 1600-1700 from the Adriatic Sea coast to Vojvodina (at that time part of Austria-Hungary, now part of Serbia), in order to serve as guards at the frontier with the Ottoman empire. It is not surprising that some of the Bunjevci (plural of Bunjevac) then went to Făgăraș, where there was a frontier between Transylvania (part of Austria-Hungary) and Wallachia (part of the Ottoman empire). Of course, this is pure speculation, things may have happened differently. What is sure is that this ancestor has lived on the Adriatic Sea coast, because my father has autosomal matches from that region.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunjevci

I spoke about this possibile Bunjevac ancestor in two messages posted on the Poreklo forum:

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg189695#msg189695

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #4 : 25 Августа 2023, 10:31:43 »
Цитировать
My father has an Y-111 match (GD = 9 steps) from the village of Komarnica, Šavnik municipality, Montenegro.
Did you contact him for Y111>BigY upgrade?

GD=9/111 is approx. TMRCA=21 generations (~500-600 ya). Probably, the same person is in your Family Finder (autosomal) matchlist.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #5 : 25 Августа 2023, 20:02:58 »
The Y-111 match, named Djurdjić, has already taken the Big Y test, paid by a relative of his, named Kasalica, who also has the I-FGC22061 haplogroup. But his relative didn’t buy him a Family Finder (autosomal) test, so I don’t know if he’s an autosomal match or not. He’s very probably not interested in genetic genealogy and possibly not even using a computer, because his e-mail address is actually Kasalica’s address. Kasalica himself didn’t take a Family Finder test, so he will likely not buy one for his relative.

The Big Y matches that took a Family Finder test at FTDNA are: Barać, Barach, Lukić, Ilić, Šabanović, Grbović, Bojović, Jaksić, Marković, Božić, Konjokrad, Coradello. None is an autosomal match with my father. However, Lukić is an autosomal match with my sister, having a 9 cM shared segment, which probably was inherited from my father. My father has a shared segment (5.7 cM) with Konjokrad, as discovered by GEDmatch (FTDNA does not take into account segments less than 8 cM).

I discussed about my father’s Y-STR matches from the Balkans in the message below:
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg181612#msg181612

There are some interesting Y-STR matches from Rumania, but I cannot recommend to them to take a Big Y test, and I will explain why.

When my father took the Big Y test, years ago, all was in order. But in the last year I was very disappointed with the quality control at FTDNA, and I told them so. My opinion is that they now rush the Big Y tests and the accuracy of the results suffers as a consequence. I’ve seen a lot of I-M253 haplogroups after Big Y tests, which is very unlikely. Also, the Y-STR matches are missing or are incorrect. So, although in the past I have recommended the Big Y test, I don’t do it anymore. For example, I recommended it to a Swede, and his Y-STR matches were almost non-existant. I discussed the case in the message below, where I also linked text files of the e-mails sent by me to the FTDNA customer helpdesk. Their response was unconvincing.

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg182095#msg182095

This is why I chose not to pay for the BAM file of my father. I didn’t want to encourage a company which takes a lot of money from its customers, but the results that are given to them are not accurate.

I thought that instead of paying 100 dollars to FTDNA for my father’s BAM file, I could pay 200 dollars to Dante Labs for a WGS (Whole Genome Sequencing) test for myself and get the BAM file included in the price. Which I did. The discounted price at Dante Labs was indeed excellent, the best on the market, but another problem has appeared, which I was not expecting at all. They received my DNA sample on March 31 and began sequencing it only 4 months later, after me contacting their helpdesk three times and them presenting excuses for the delay each time. However, I found out that this is a common problem with Dante Labs, there are many others who thought that the results will be ready in 2 months, but now they see they will have to wait 6 months or more. I spoke about the problems with Dante Labs in the 4 messages from the page below:

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=3909.msg190053#msg190053

So, I cannot recommend FTDNA and Dante Labs for Y-DNA testing to anyone at this moment. And I understood that there are problems also with Nebula Genomics. Anyone should decide alone if he wants to give money to these companies.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #6 : 31 Августа 2023, 19:35:42 »
An update about the research.

1) A. Jurjević (I-FGC22061>I-FT123897) is a Big Y and Y-12 match with my father. I contacted him by e-mail and told him about his possible connection with the Bona family. He said that he has genetic cousins (genetic matches) from all the branches of the De Zorzi family, for example from the branches De Bona and Graziano. He then said that Croatia changed the Zorzi family name to Jurjević, and sent me a link to the relevant article from the online Croatian Encyclopedia.

---------
{automatic translation}
Jurjević (lat. Georgio, de Georgiis, Zorzi, de Zorzi), Croatian noble family from Zadar. She achieved her greatest rise by agreeing with Louis I of Anjou [king of Hungary, Croatia and Poland (1326–1382)]. Until the re-establishment of Venetian rule in Zadar in 1409, its members were princes in Zadar, Trogir, Rab and Pag. In the 1380s, Ludovik, after studying in Padova, became a municipal judge in Zadar, and Filip Jurjev, admiral of Sigismund of Luxemburg and a participant in the battle near Nikopol in 1396. In 1402, the Zadar Council, after Ladislaus of Naples [Ladislav Napuljski] came to power in Zadar, declared Filip Jurjev a rebel (rebellis),the commune confiscated all his goods, so he took refuge in Vrana [Zadar county, Croatia]. After the Venetian acquisition of Zadar in 1409, prominent members of the family were exiled to Venice, as part of the policy of emigrating political opponents implemented by the Venetian authorities. By the end of the XV century, the Jurjevićs gradually disappeared from public life in Zadar.

https://www.enciklopedija.hr/natuknica.aspx?id=29585
--------

I told Jurjević to search at first the matches that have ancestors in Venice or the region of Veneto, Italy (you can do a search on Ancestry that returns only the matches from a specific geographic location). Then search the matches that have ancestors from the towns on the Adriatic coast (Zadar, Split, Dubrovnik, Kotor). Then look at their trees and see if these ancestors have Italian names. I also told him to contact J. De Bona and ask him about the Bona family. I then asked for his GEDmatch kit number because I wanted to see if he is related to Siryi/Chumak. And finally I suggested to him to take a DNA test at 23andMe. But all this was in vain, because Jurjević responded that he doesn’t have time for genealogical research, so he cannot help me. What’s more, Jurjević has made his FTDNA account private, so he no longer appears as an Y-STR or Big Y match. This is very probably because of the mocking of his family story on the Poreklo forum. I do however have have screenshots of him being an Y-DNA match.

My father has a match (8 cM) on Ancestry named N. Bona, a Rumanian, who doesn’t have a tree. I have contacted on Ancestry both J. DeBona and N. Bona, and neither of them has answered.

2) According to the members of the Bona family from Ragusa (Dubrovnik), the Bona family originated from Vieste, Apulia, Italy and was of Germanic origin. They were a noble family from 940 on. They were also Polish marquises, very probably because of the Bona family members who owned the Krakow saltworks, which supplied all of Poland with the much needed salt. See the fragment below from a book written in 1863.

-------------
The patriciate [nobility] of the Bonas is of 940: they came from Vesta [Vieste], a place in Apulia, where they were considered an ancient German family (antiqua stirpe allemana); this is the case with many Italian families whose ancestors came in with the Gothic irruptions at the fall of the Roman empire. [...] The Bonas are Polish marquises as well.

The Eastern Shores of the Adriatic in 1863: With a Visit to Montenegro (pages 129-130)
Author: Emily Anne (Beaufort) Smythe Strangford
https://archive.org/details/easternshoresad00stragoog
-----------

The story about the Germanic origin from Vieste of the Bona family makes sense from an historical point of view. People of Germanic origin (Lombards, Normans, Swabians) controlled southern Italy for almost 700 years (571-1266).

----------
{automatic translation}
After being administered by the Byzantines, it [Vieste] fell under the domination of the Lombards [571-1053]. The urban development of the city as it appears today (castle, cathedral and medieval historic center) took place in the Norman [1053-1194] and then Swabian [Hohenstaufen 1194-1266] periods. Later it followed the fate of the rest of the Kingdom of Naples under the Anjou dynasty.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vieste
-----------

3) People of Scandinavian origin were mentioned in southern Italy even before the Normans.

----------
There is evidence for Viking activity in Italy as a precursor to the arrival of the Normans in 999, but some raiding is recorded. Ermentarius of Noirmoutier and the Annales Bertiniani provide contemporary evidence for Vikings based in Frankia (France) proceeding to Iberia and thence to Sicily around 860. In 860, according to an account by the Norman monk Dudo of Saint-Quentin, a Viking fleet, probably under Björn Ironside and Hastein, landed in Sicily, conquering it.

Many Norsemen fought as mercenaries in Southern Italy, including the Varangian Guard led by Harald Hardrada, who later became king of Norway, who conquered Sicily between 1038 and 1040, with the help of Norman mercenaries, under William de Hauteville, who won his nickname Iron Arm by defeating the emir of Syracuse in single combat, and a Lombard contingent, led by Arduin. The Varangians were first used as mercenaries in Italy against the Arabs in 936. Runestones were raised in Sweden in memory of warriors who died in Langbarðaland (Land of the Lombards), the Old Norse name for southern Italy.

Later, several Anglo-Danish and Norwegian nobles participated in the Norman conquest of southern Italy, like Edgar the Ætheling, who left England in 1086, and Jarl Erling Skakke, who won his nickname ("Skakke", meaning bent head) after a battle against Arabs in Sicily. On the other hand, many Anglo-Danish rebels fleeing William the Conqueror, joined the Byzantines in their struggle against the Robert Guiscard, duke of Apulia, in Southern Italy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_conquest_of_southern_Italy
------------

4) There is a toponym (place name) named Bunić on the Adriatic Sea coast in the Lika-Senj county (the Croatian name of the Bona family being Bunić). A man with a branch of the I-FGC22061 haplogroup (I-Y50461), G. Barach, has written in his FTDNA profile that his earliest known male ancestor was born Dane Barać in 1860 in Podlapača, only 10 km from the Bunić village. This strenghtens the association between the name Bunić and the I-FGC22061 haplogroup. See the screenshot below hosted on my Google Drive.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FKs5vwSvYFWM1TLpxiHiQBXfv-fJ3ZrX/view?usp=sharing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buni%C4%87,_Croatia

5) The theory of the Bunić family having the I-FGC22045 haplogroup must be verified by DNA testing. I contacted one of the admins of the Croatian DNA Project on FTDNA and told him that I can pay for a Y-DNA test (SNP) at YSEQ, if he finds a man named Bunić. At this time they don't have anybody named Bunić in their database of tested men. I did not receive an answer, so I guess they are not interested.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #7 : 05 Сентября 2023, 07:41:10 »
In this message I discuss mainly about the commercial network that Ragusa (Dubrovnik) created in the Balkans with the help of colonies established in towns located along the trade routes. These colonies could explain the spread of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup in the Balkans. The message has 4 parts.

PART 1

One theory is that the I-FGC22045 haplogroup arrived in the Balkans on the Adriatic coast and then spread inland. The vectors of this expansion were the merchants who traded goods, especially salt.

I found a book that can be used to support this theory. The book is named “The Republic of Ragusa” and was written by the historian Luigi Villari in 1904. It can be downloaded for free from the link below.

https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/55332
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Villari

These are the most important passages from the book that are relevant to the discussion about the haplogroup.

1) Pages 30-31: In 1169 the Byzantine emperor Manuel Comnenus occupied the Adriatic coast towns protected by the Republic of Venice, including Ragusa (Dubrovnik). Venice declared war and reconquered the towns. After that, in Ragusa was appointed a viscount representing Venice, a young noble named Raynerius Joannes, also known as Renier Zane/Zen. He was probably a relative (possibly the father) of Reniero Zeno (Renieri Zen), doge (ruler) of Venice between 1253-1268.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reniero_Zeno

What is interesting here is the name Raynerius/Renier/Reniero, also written as Ranieri. This name originates from the Germanic name Ragnar, used especially in Scandinavia. Maybe the Venetian viscount of Ragusa with a Nordic name was the one who brought the I-FGC22045 haplogroup to the Adriatic coast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranieri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar

2) Pages 35-36 : Between 1186-1190 Ragusa was occupied by the Normans. A count was appointed in Ragusa as a representative of the Norman Kingdom of Sicily. The name of the count who ruled for 4 years was Gervase, a name of Germanic origin that today is spelled Gervais in French or Jarvis in English. It is possible that he, or one of his subordinates, was the one who brought the I-FGC22045 haplogroup to Dubrovnik.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/gervais
https://selectsurnames.com/gervais/

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #8 : 05 Сентября 2023, 07:45:40 »
PART 2

3) Pages 80-85 : The role of Ragusa (Dubrovnik) in the commercial trade of the Balkans. The importance of the salt trade is emphasized, Ragusa having an almost monopoly in the Balkans, the only competitor being Kotor. The trade was done using Vlach caravans. We know that the Drobnjak tribe was initially a Vlach tribe, so it is easy to understand how the haplogroup passed from the Ragusan merchants to the Vlach population, which then spread it further in territories that were not close to the Adriatic coast.

=========
The overland trade of the Balkans attained a remarkable development in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, and regular trade routes were established from the Adriatic coast through the interior to Constantinople and the Black Sea. Of these routes which, together with that from Hungary, formed the connecting link between Western and Eastern Europe, there were several. One was from Spalato [Split, Croatia], one from the Narenta [Neretva river] mouth, one from Ragusa [Dubrovnik], one from Cattaro [Kotor, Montenegro], and one from the mouth of the Bojana [a river also known as Buna/Bunë]. They all joined the Belgrad-Constantinople route at different points, and all had branch routes to the various mining and commercial centres of Servia, Bosnia, Hlum [Zachlumia], Albania, and Bulgaria. Ragusa, owing to her geographical position, was always the chief market on the Adriatic for the hinterland, and Ragusan caravans were constantly travelling along the various routes. The chief imports from the Slavonic lands were cattle, cheese, dried fish from the lake of Scutari, skins, wool, honey, wax, timber, silver, and iron. Ragusa exported salt, manufactured cloths, clothes, brocades, arms, axes, horse-trappings, glass-ware, perfumes, sweetmeats, southern fruits, fish, oil, wine, and gold- and silversmiths’ wares. The salt trade formed one of the Republic’s chief sources of income, as the interior, although rich in other minerals, was absolutely wanting in this necessary commodity. Salt-pans were established at four points along the Illyrian coast—the Narenta, Ragusa, the Bocche di Cattaro, and San Sergio on the Bojana. The Ragusans, by means of old treaties with the Slaves, had almost acquired a monopoly of the traffic, and they were often able to punish the depredations to which their territory was subjected by cutting off the supply. The largest salt-pans were in the neighbourhood of Ragusa itself, but after 1333 they were removed to Stagno, where the industry is carried on to this day, and continues to supply the saltless interior. The Narenta salt-pans were monopolised by the Ragusans, who established a customs station at the river’s mouth, and those of the Bojana, although outside their territory, were also in their hands; their only rival was Cattaro, whence the innumerable quarrels with that city.
[...]
The land trade was carried on entirely by means of caravans. There were no carriage roads since the decay of those built by the Romans, and all goods travelled by caravan and were carried on the backs of pack-animals, chiefly horses. Each caravan, which was formerly called a “turma”, a word still used in Montenegro, consisted of 200 to 300 pack-animals under the charge of Vlach drovers. These Vlachs or Rumans of Dalmatia were nearly all shepherds or horse- and cattle-drovers, and had markedly nomadic habits. At an early date they became identified with the Slavs, but, as I have said, they were probably of Latin origin. In the Middle Ages they were usually the subjects of the feudal chiefs and monasteries. The leader of the caravan, also a Vlach, provided an adequate armed escort, and undertook to protect his charge against the brigands. Most of the traders were Ragusans or natives of the other coast towns, but Slavonic merchants also took part in this trade, especially those who were settled at Ragusa, where some of them became naturalised so as to enjoy the same exemptions and privileges as the citizens. Even noble feudatories and kings did not disdain this kind of traffic, and employed their own Vlachs for the purpose. The journey was by slow stages, as the paths were steep and rocky, and many precautions were necessary.

Luigi Villari: “The Republic of Ragusa”
=========

4) If the I-FGC22045 haplogroup originated in a Ragusan family from the Adriatic coast, we must see it spread along the trade routes used by the Ragusan merchants. I will use my map with all the Balkan men who have a branch of the I-P109 haplogroup.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1vUVGMnK_Jqmyq_ZT0aiAS2bxaFtSgc4&usp=sharing

4.1) The first trade route was:

Ragusa (Dubrovnik)=>Trebinje=>Bileća =>Cernica (south of Gacko)=>Foča=>Ustikolina (Ragusan colony)=>Goražde=>Pljevlja=>Prijepolje (halting place)=>Sjenica=>Raška=>Novi Pazar (Ragusan colony)=>Prokuplje=>Niš=>Vidin (Ragusan colony)

Men with a branch of the I-P109 haplogroup who live or have ancestors born in the villages and towns that were on the first caravan route, from Ragusa to Niš:

In Cernica: the tomb of the Vlach prince Nikola Rašković Drobnjak, whose haplogroup is a branch of I-FGC22045

Near Gacko: Vidojević, Starović, Askrabić, Bošković

In or near Foča: Kovać, Shubo

In Ustikolina: Maksimović

In Pljevlja: Brašanac, Popadić

In or near Prijepolje: Sadiković, Pasanović, Dautović, Ratković, Ljujić, Joksimović, Martinović, Popadić, Brašnjović, Kajević, Ćuković, Varaklić, Reljić, Nestorović

In Novi Pazar: Andrić

Near Prokuplje: Drobnjak, Koković, Radovanović

4.2) The second trade route was:

Mouth of Neretva river=>Blagaj=>Konjic=>Visoko=>Podvisoki (commercial capital of the country and the seat of important trading communities)=>Olovo=>Vlasenica
then there were three routes from Vlasenica
Vlasenica=>Srebrenica (center of the silver-mining district)
Vlasenica=>Tuzla
Vlasenica=>Kušlat (large Ragusan colony)=>Zvornik=>Sremska Mitrovica (flourishing Ragusan settlement)=>Belgrade


Men having a branch of the I-P109 haplogroup, who live or have ancestors born in the villages and towns that were on the second caravan route, from Ragusa to Srebrenica, Tuzla or Belgrade:

At the mouth of the Neretva river is Opuzen, connected to the salt trade : Damjanović
----------
Opuzen (Italian: Forte Opus) is a small town in Dubrovnik-Neretva County in Croatia. The town is located 12 km upstream from the mouth of the river Neretva, in southern Dalmatia. [...] Opuzen got its name from its fortress, Fort Opus.[...] In the Middle Ages, Opuzen was known as Posrednica. The Republic of Ragusa in the 14th century had major trading markets (mainly trading in salt) in Opuzen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opuzen
----------

In Konjic: Magazin (former name Milutinović)

Near Vlasenica: Bakmaz, Kulić

Near Tuzla: Cetković-Gentula, Aganović

Near Zvornik: Trifunović

In Belgrade: Đukić, Krtinić

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #9 : 05 Сентября 2023, 07:48:51 »
PART 3

5) The Ragusans also traded using ships, that sailed south of Ragusa, along the Adriatic coast to Ulcinj and Bar, and then inland. After unloading, some of the cargo was transported further inland by caravans.

5.1) The first route was:
Ulcinj=>Shirgj Church (Kisha e Sirgjit)=>Shkodër =>Prizren (main Ragusan trade center)=>Lipjan=>Novo Brdo=>Sofia (Ragusan colony)

5.2) The second route was:
Bar=>Budva=>Cetinje =>Kotor=>Podgorica=>Brskovo (Ragusan colony)=>Peć/Peja (Ragusan colony)

======
These various routes were called collectively the Via de Bossina in the Ragusan documents. The routes which started from the coast at points south of Ragusa were denominated the Via de Zenta. Ragusan vessels sailed down the coast, and either discharged their goods at the towns of Antivari [now Bar, Montenegro] and Dulcigno [now Ulcinj, Montenegro], or sailed for some distance up the various rivers—the Bojana [Buna/Bunë], the Drin, the Mat, the Ishëm, the Devoli, and the Vjosa. This stretch of coast, which had formed part of the Byzantine theme of Dyrrhachium, was under Serbian rule from 1180 to 1440.

A few miles farther south is Dulcigno [Ulcinj] which was also an autonomous oligarchical Republic, albeit less important than Antivari [Bar]. Here the Roman [Romance speaking] element was always mixed with the Albanian. After the Turkish conquest it became a nest of pirates. Close by was the Golfo dello Drino, into which the two rivers Bojana and Drin flowed. Eighteen miles up the course of the former [Bojana/Buna] was the great Benedictine monastery of San Serge and St. Bacchus [today named Shirgj Church], round which stood warehouses, customs offices, salt stores, shops, and booths, forming a centre called San Sergio by the Italians, Sveti Srgj by the Serbs; it retained its importance until the sixteenth century. Here the ships unloaded their cargoes, which were forwarded to all parts of the interior by caravan; goods designed for Scutari [today Shkodër], however, were sometimes transhipped into smaller boats and thus carried up to the lake and town. [...] Thence the caravans proceeded to Prizren [Kosovo], which they reached in thirty-three hours by a road reputed to be one of the most difficult in the Albanian mountains.[...]. Here was the chief commercial factory of the Ragusans for Albania, and they erected two Latin churches. From Prizren the routes crossed a fertile and well-populated plain, over the watershed between the Adriatic and the Black Sea, and into the plain of Kosovo. At Lipjan it crossed the route from Bosnia to Thessaloniki [Greece], reached Novo Brdo [Kosovo], and finally Sofia, one of the Bulgarian capitals. The first mention of a Ragusan merchant in this city is in 1376; the Ragusan colony became very important at the end of the century in Turkish times, when Sofia was the residence of the Beglerbeg of Rumelia.

The second Via de Zenta started from the three harbours of Antivari [Bar] via the Sutorman Pass, Budva by the bridle path to Cetinje, and Cattaro [Kotor] by the road to Cetinje. A little further east the three branches met, and the route proceeded [...] to Podgorica [...]; then to the Plava lake, one of the fairest spots in Albania, but now also one of the most dangerous, on the shores of which, according to Professor Stojan Novaković, stood the well-known Servian trading centre of Brskovo. [...] Brskovo (Brescoa or Brescoua in Venetian and Ragusan documents) was the chief commercial city of Serbia, and is mentioned as early as the days of King Stephen the First-Crowned (1196-1228). It was principally frequented by the people of Ragusa and Cattaro, and to a lesser extent by the Venetians. The various products of the districts were collected here for export to the coast, while the caravans from the coast brought foreign goods for distribution throughout Serbia. The customs, which were usually farmed out to Ragusans, were a source of considerable revenue to the Serbian kings. Here, as in some other mining towns, was also a mint, where the grossi di Brescova were coined. The Ragusan colony was numerous and influential, containing members of some of the noblest families. Beyond Brskovo came Peć [...], that enjoyed considerable traffic, and had a Ragusan colony in the fourteenth century.

Luigi Villari: “The Republic of Ragusa”
======

In Ulcinj there is a man named Kahari who has the I-P109 haplogroup.

This sailing up the Albanian rivers could explain the presence of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup in various points of Albania which are not on the Adriatic coast, but are linked by rivers to it, for example in Mal i Bardhë (Malbardhë), the Mat district, Mallakastër.

We can see another instance in which the Benedictine order was involved in the salt trade. Shirgj Church (Kisha e Sirgjit in Albanian) is on the Buna/Bojana river half way between Shkodër and the Adriatic Sea. Then we learn that Prizren was the main commercial center of the Ragusans in Albania. Sofia, Bulgaria, also had an important Ragusan colony.

At this time, there are no men with the I-P109 haplogroup in any of the towns and villages from these two routes, excepting the man from Ulcinj. Maybe they will appear, maybe not. The explanation is simple. Only if a member of the Ragusan family with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup was stationed in the “Ragusan trade colony”, the haplogroup could be passed to the local population. We don’t know precisely at this time the name of the family with the haplogroup, we only presume it was the Zorzi or Bona family. Maybe there were no Zorzi or Bona merchants stationed in Prizren or Sofia. Also, some of these towns lost their importance, for example Brskovo, which was founded by Saxon miners, but after the Turkish conquest was abandoned.

------------
Brskovo was first mentioned between 1219 and 1228, in a trade charter of Stefan the First-Crowned, addressed to the Republic of Ragusa.
The Latin name for Brskovo was Brescia, and it used to be the centre of a district. Having been regularly visited by merchants from Kotor and Dubrovnik, this town with the Virgin's church administered by the Dominicans from Dubrovnik, had been at its zenith in the 1280s, while from 1350 onwards, it completely declined. As a mine, Brskovo was established by the Saxons inhabiting this area. They had their prince and Catholic priests. During its golden age, at the time of Stefan Uroš I, a customs office existed in Brskovo as well as, a century later, a consulate of Dubrovnik. Money called «Grossi de Brescova» was minted in Brskovo. Dante [Alighieri] in his Paradiso [Divine Comedy] mentions the mines and mint in Chapter XIX, pp. 139-141. In 1399, the Turks took Brskovo, and according to Dubrovnik sources, in 1433 it was an abandoned place. On the whole inland territory of present-day Montenegro, Brskovo was the only commercial centre whose importance could measure up to that of the coastal towns. Not even coastal towns could boast about such value of production and income.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brskovo
------------

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #10 : 05 Сентября 2023, 07:49:54 »
PART 4

6) The connection of the Ragusans with mining is important, because the I-FGC22045 haplogroup could have been originated in Saxon miners, who passed it to the Ragusans, which spread it in the Balkans through their trade colonies. The Ragusans sold their products to the miners and bought ore that was processed in Ragusa and sold for profit all over the Balkans. As can be seen from the book fragment below, Ragusan colonies were found in towns from the mining districts, and the Ragusan merchant families lived next to the Saxon miner families. Intermarriage was probably common because of both communities having the same religion and going to the same church.

========
Throughout Serbia, Bosnia, Zachlumia, the Zeta, and Bulgaria there were thus numerous Ragusan colonies. As a rule, mining was the chief industry, and it was in the mining districts that the commercial settlements were to be found. In Roman times the mines of Illyria were well known; they were abandoned at the time of the barbarian inroads, and it was not until the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, at the time of the rise of the Serb States, that the industry revived. [...] King Stephen Uroš II Milutin (1282-1320) was the first to summon in German miners, called Sasi (i.e. Saxons), so as to benefit by their superior skill, but the Ragusans were also numerous. Many of the technical terms relating to mining still used in Bosnia are of German origin: orat = Ort; hutman = Hüttenmann; karan = Karren. The ore was extracted from galleries and shafts, many of which are still in existence. The refining of the metal was executed at Ragusa or Venice.

Gold, silver, lead, and iron were the chief products of the Bosnian and Serbian mines. Gold, of which the earliest mention is in 1253, was found chiefly in the neighbourhood of Novo Brdo , which was for a long time the largest city in the interior of the Balkan peninsula between the plain of Kosovo and the Bulgarian Morava, three miles east of Priština. Silver, however, was found in much larger quantities. Of this metal two kinds are mentioned in the Ragusan annals, i.e. argento bianco (white silver) and argento de glama (glamsko srebro in Slavonic), which had a slight gold alloy. Srebrenica was the chief center for the silver-mining industry. Lead was another important product, and was in much request for the roofing of houses and churches. Sometimes a whole caravan of 300 horses journeyed from the mining districts to Ragusa laden with nothing but lead. The iron output gave rise to various active industries, both locally and at Ragusa, where Bosnian iron-workers were often employed by the Republic. A certain amount of copper was also found, and there were tin and quicksilver mines in the Kreševo district [Bosnia]. The principal mining centres thus were: Kreševo and Fojnica; Srebrenica, near the Drina, chiefly for silver; Zvornik on the Drina, for lead; Rudnik, where there are traces of Roman mines mentioned by Ragusan documents of the thirteenth century; Kopaonik [Serbia], for silver and iron; Novo Brdo [Kosovo], for gold and other metals; Kučevo [Serbia] and Brskovo [Montenegro], which flourished at the end of the thirteenth century.

Each mining centre usually consisted of a castle on a hill, wherein dwelt the Vojvod, or feudal lord, representing the King or Tsar, and a town below with a market, where the miners and merchants dwelt. [...] The Saxons, as we have seen, were the most numerous of the foreign settlers, and the Ragusans came immediately after them. At Novo Brdo early in the fifteenth century we find members of nearly all the noblest Ragusan families—Bobali, Benessa, Menze, Ragnina, Resti, Gozze, Caboga, etc. The Ragusans were the principal merchants and carriers, and the provision trade was almost wholly in their hands. They sold supplies in exchange for raw metal. There were also merchants from the other Dalmatian towns, from Italy, especially from Venice, and a few natives. The mining towns on the whole had a marked Latin character, and they were all provided with at least one Latin church, under the authority of the Bishop of Cattaro. [...] The chief authority in the town was, as I have said, the Serbian Vojvod, but the head of the mining and mercantile community was the Conte dei Purgari [Bürger] Vaoturchi. The taxes and customs were farmed to Ragusan or Cattarine speculators, and in fact most of the higher financial officials in the South-Slavonic States, including the Protovestiars (Finance Ministers), were usually natives of those cities. [...] In 1332 a consul was appointed to reside at the Royal Court, which was at Prizren or Skopje. This consul was to travel about the country, visiting all the market-towns, mining centres, and fairs, with a view to learning what openings there were for Ragusan trade, as well as all the towns where Ragusan colonies were already established. The different mints were under the superintendence of the Vojvods and of the gabellotti (tax-farmers) or aurifices (goldsmiths), usually Ragusans or Dalmatians.

Luigi Villari: “The Republic of Ragusa”
==========

As was said in the book fragment above, one of the technical mining terms still used in Bosnia is “karan”, derived from the German word “Karran”, meaning “cart” in English, as in the cart used to transport the ore in the mine. There is a man named Karan from Gornja Slabinja in Bosnia-Herzegovina who has the I-P109 haplogroup.


7) Ragusa kept its trading privileges when the Ottoman empire conquered most of the Balkans. Some of its old colonies disappeared, but other prospered, and new colonies appeared. One of them was in Travnik, which is said to be the place of origin of the Drobnjak tribe who has the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, a branch of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup (presumed to be characteristic for one or more Ragusan families).

==========
After the conquest of the Slavic States [Serbia, Bosnia, Herzegovina] by the Turks [1459-1482] the Ragusans were granted the fullest privileges, although they were liable as before to attacks from brigands and arbitrary impositions on the part of the Pashas and Sandjakbegs. Some of their old settlements in the Balkans were destroyed, but others arose in their place. Of the older towns, only Belgrad maintained its former importance under the new rulers. But now Vrhbosna (Sarajevo) arose, founded, it is said, before the invasion by Ragusan merchants. Instead of Novo Brdo we find Novi Pazar [Serbia] and Prokuplje [Serbia], Skopje [North Macedonia], Sofia [Bulgaria], Travnik [Bosnia], and Mostar [Herzegovina]. In all these towns there were wealthy Ragusan colonies, each with its church and its consul. Some were found even at the mouths of the Danube [Dobrudja, now part of Rumania]. The inland trade in Turkish times was carried on by caravan as before, and along the same routes.

Luigi Villari: “The Republic of Ragusa”
==========

Men having a branch of the I-P109 haplogroup, who live or have ancestors born in the towns that harbored new Ragusan colonies:

In or near Sarajevo: Malović, Vulina, Pandurević, Lukić

In Mostar: Dedić, Robe

The conclusion is that Ragusa (Dubrovnik) created and operated a network of trading colonies all across the Balkans. These colonies were staffed with people from Ragusa who brought their families with them. In time these families intermarried with the local population and this is probably how the different branches of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup appeared.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #11 : 11 Сентября 2023, 17:47:03 »
Another update.

1) I was speaking in one of my previous messages about the count Gervase, who was appointed as the ruler of Ragusa (Dubrovnik) by the Norman Kingdom of Sicily, which controlled Ragusa between 1186-1190. After the Normans were replaced by the Byzantines, Gervase stayed in Ragusa and probably married a local woman, because his son, Martinussius, gave the name of a noble family from Ragusa named Martinussio.

--------
The House of Martinussio (also Martinuscio, Martinusso, Martinus; Croatian: Martinušić) were a noble family of the Republic of Ragusa.

The family descended from comes [count] Gervasius (fl. 1186–90) and his son Martinussius (fl. 1234–43). In the beginning of the 15th century Ragusan nobility were present in Novo Brdo as merchants or mining lords; Martinussio were also present. The family was extinct by 1595. They were not related to the Martini in Spalato, Martinuscio in Zara, or Martinussio in Cattaro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martinussio
------

The name Gervase appears to be of Norman origin.

------
The ancestors of the Gervase family migrated to England following the Norman Conquest of 1066. The surname Gervase is based on the Norman personal name Gervase.

https://www.houseofnames.com/gervase-family-crest
-----

It is possible that Gervase/Gervasius was the first man with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup who arrived in the Balkans. Since the Martinussio family was involved in trading and mining, Gervase's descendants could have spread the haplogroup in the Balkans. Unfortunately there is not much information abut the Martinussio family on the internet, so the research must be done in Dubrovnik's archives.

2) There is a book in Italian about the history of Ragusa (Dubrovnik), written by Serafino Razzi and published in 1595, which can be freely downloaded from the link below. Serafino Razzi has lived in Ragusa from 1587 to 1598. At the page 5 of the book (page 63 of the PDF), are presented the origins of the Ragusan noble families as recorded by Razzi in 1588. About the Bona family it is written: “Di Bona, venuti di Alemagna”, which means “Di Bona, arrived from Germany”. On the next page, about the Giorgi/Zorzi family it is written: “Di Giorgi, venuti da Roma”, which means “Di Giorgi, arrived from Rome”.

https://archive.org/details/lastoriadiragus00razzgoog/mode/1up (reprint from 1903, with better legibility)
https://books.google.ro/books?id=XEHP_gOjBNMC&printsec=frontcover&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false (original version)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serafino_Razzi

I already spoke in a previous message about the assumed Germanic origin of the Bona family, but it was from a book written in 1863. Now we have the same story, but from a book written almost 300 years earlier. This is good, because the story becomes more credible, but that doesn’t mean it is confirmed as being true. Only the Y-DNA testing could prove the Germanic origin.

As I said, I have contacted J. DeBona (autosomal match with A. Jurjević) and N. Bona (autosomal match with my father), but neither of them responded. I then searched a Bona who has a connection with Dubrovnik. I looked at the Talk section of the English article about the Bona family and I found a user named Debona.michel. He has participated in many Wikipedia discussions related to articles about the Bona family. His true name is Michel DeBona.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bona_family
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Debona.michel

I searched the name with Google and found an article from 2023 about a reunion of the descendants of the Bona family in Dubrovnik, celebrating 1000 years since the name of the family was mentioned in official documents. I read the article with Google Translate. The article is actually an interview with Michel DeBona, who says that the eagle from the coat of arms of the family symbolizes the Germanic origin. He seems very passionate about the history of his family.

https://dubrovacki.slobodnadalmacija.hr/dubrovnik/vijesti/hrvatska-i-svijet/proslavili-smo-tisucu-godina-naseg-roda-u-dubrovniku-koji-ljudi-danas-otkrivaju-iz-serija-1298829

I searched the Michel DeBona name with Google and found his Facebook and LinkedIn accounts. He is fluent in English, French and Italian, but he also knows Croatian at a good level.

I contacted him on Facebook 3 days ago and he didn’t respond. I am not surprised, DNA testing has the potential to destroy the myth which is the foundation of the family story. At this time the Germanic origin of the Bona family is a myth, because there is no precise information or document about the Germanic ancestors. This origin can be proven only by Y-DNA testing and it seems that no Bona male family member has taken such a test or is willing to speak about it.

3) In the book written by Razzi it is said that after the fall of Constantinople and of the Byzantine empire, Ragusa has sent two ambassadors to the Turkish sultan in order to preserve their privileges in the territories formerly ruled by the Byzantines. What is surprising is that the first requested privilege was not related to commerce, but to marriage.

-----------
Cinque anni dopo la caduta di Costantinopoli, ì Ragusei, prevedendo il progresso delle armi mussulmane, mandarono Paladin Marino de Gondola, Paladino Pietro de Luccarì, ambasciadori a Maometto II, a supplicarlo volesse permetter' loro di «liberamente uxar, trafegar et mercantizar, . . in Schiavonia, Romania, Natòlia, Bosna, Albania, Bulgaria, Vlachia, Costantinopoli [...]

Five years after the fall of Constantinople, the Ragusans, predicting the progress of the musulman army, sent the knights Marino de Gondola and Pietro de Luccarì, ambassadors to the court of Mehmed II, to beg him to allow them to «freely marry, transport and trade, .. in Slavonia, Romania [the former Byzantine empire], Anatolia, Bosnia, Albania, Bulgaria, Wallachia [southern part of Rumania], Constantinople [...]

Serafino Razzi: La storia di Raugia
(page 98 of the book or 156 of the PDF)
--------

What this means is that the Ragusans who staffed the trading colonies from the territories now controlled by the Ottoman empire wanted to be free to marry local women, which they already did until then. This right was so important to them, that it was put before the right to freely transport and trade goods, which was the reason to exist for the colonies. So it seems that an important number of the Ragusans who worked in the trading colonies were not married to Ragusan women, but to local women, which again can explain the spread of the I-FGC22045 in the Balkans, if this haplogroup is indeed associated with a Ragusan family.

4) There is a member of the Bona family who was born in the town of Alba Iulia in 1827, when Transylvania was part of Hungary. His name was Miho de Bona and was the son of Luka de Bona (born in Dubrovnik) and Ane Polissena de Farkas (born in Aiud, then named Nagyenyed). The Farkas surname is Hungarian, so this is an example of a Ragusan who married a local woman probably from the town where his trading colony was located.

https://www.geni.com/people/Marquis-Miho-de-Bona/6000000020649458507

Linked to this information, there is an interesting article in English about the Ragusans and Hungary, written by Antal Molnar. I present a fragment below.

----------
Ragusa’s trading operations in Serbia and Bosnia, established in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, were part of an extensive commercial network built on medieval precedents in the Ottoman Empire. Ragusan merchants were even to be found in Bulgaria and Albania. They had already appeared in Hungary in the second half of the thirteenth century, being particularly active in Syrmia and present in Belgrade, Kovin, Baia Mare, Buda and Székesfehérvár. The story of Ragusan merchants in Ottoman Hungary starts with the capture of
Belgrade in 1521. Quickly recognizing the new opportunities, Ragusan businessmen took over the Hungarian market in the 1540s, appearing in Buda in 1542, Pest in 1544 and Pécs in 1545. New markets also opened through the capture of Timişoara [today in Rumania] in 1552, where they established a trading colony that served as a base for expansion through Caransebeș and Lipova  [both now in Rumania] into the Principality of Transylvania and the Romanian voivodates. The locations of the Ragusan merchant colonies also determined the routes by which they traded with Hungary. The smaller market outposts in Hungary were connected to Buda, Timişoara, or directly to Belgrade. The latter, located at the intersection of trade routes, was the centre of all exports and imports to and from Hungary. The main routes were the Buda–Belgrade military road, the road to Belgrade from Pécs via Osijek and the road from Transylvania via Timişoara.
[...]
The first record of a merchant working in Timişoara dates from 1554, two years after the capture of the town. Settlement and trading activity on a substantial scale started only in the 1560s, when Timişoara joined Buda as an outpost of the Belgrade colony. The Timişoara merchants mostly traded on credit from Belgrade, and the less wealthy traders who settled in the town were often associates of their wealthier compatriots in Belgrade. By the 1570s, the Timişoara colony had become the most important base of Ragusan merchants in Hungary.

https://hrcak.srce.hr/267783
(click on “engelski PDF” in the page above to download the article)
----------

5) The biggest autosomal match (18 cM) with my father on Ancestry who has Croatian ancestors is an American named J. Kusianovich. His paternal grandfather, Daniel Alexander Kusianovich, was born in 1898 in Mokošica, which now is a district of Dubrovnik. Its history is connected with some of the noble or merchant families of Dubrovnik.

----------
Mokošica is the first major western suburban town of Dubrovnik (7 km from Dubrovnik). [...] From the 16th century onwards Mokošica was the summer location for the citizens of Dubrovnik (Houses of Bona, Zuzorić [Zuzori], Ragnina and Giorgi).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moko%C5%A1ica
---------

This again reinforces the possible link of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup with the Bona and Zorzi families.

6) I made a color coded map with all those present on YFull that have a branch of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup or a haplogroup closely related to it. I used the list made by Željko on page 79 of the Drobnjak thread (Poreklo forum) and I added a Swede who is present on FTDNA, but not on YFull. Those who have the same haplogroup are presented with markers of the same color, and those who have branches of the same haplogroup are presented with markers having different nuances of the same color.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1621ziKKBu0ed4YosokSP3IJ1uNcdxks&usp=sharing

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #12 : 18 Сентября 2023, 17:59:15 »
This is a two part message.

PART 1

The I-FGC22045 haplogroup seems to have been spread in the Balkans by the Ragusan merchants and by the Vlach caravaneers. But at this time we don’t know who was the man who brought the haplogroup to the Balkans and which Ragusan family had the haplogroup. We only now about the Drobnjak-Novljan tribe who probably received the haplogroup from a Ragusan family and spread it in the areas where its male members have settled.

The Normans based in Sicily have controlled Ragusa [Dubrovnik] between 1186-1190. They appointeded a count named Gervase to be the ruler. Being the ruler of Ragusa, Gervase appears in some official documents, for example in treaties signed with other rulers from the region. The name Gervase was of Norman origin and was written Gervasio/Gervasius in texts written in Latin alphabet and Крьваш in texts written in Cyrillic alphabet (ь is not a letter, but a sign that signifies the softening of the preceding consonant when the word is spoken). The current writing in Serbo-Croatian with Latin alphabet is Krvaš and is pronounced like Krvash in English.

-----------
{automatic translation from Serbo-Croatian}
KRVAŠ (Martinušić; Gervazije, Gervasius), prince (XII century). His family affiliation cannot be reliably established, although it is known that he had more brothers and a sister, whose names are unknown. Čremošnik and Mahnken call him Martinušić, because a branch of the family was named after his son Martinussius. It appears for the first time in September 1186, when, as the Duke [Count] of Dubrovnik, in the presence of the Chamberlain of the Sicilian King William II (Dubrovnik recognized Norman rule in 1186–92) and the Archbishop of Dubrovnik, he received a peace delegation from the Grand Prefect of Raš, Stefan Nemanja, after his failed attack on Dubrovnik in 1185. The prince is mentioned in the treaty of friendship signed by Dubrovnik and Ravenna in 1188, in the document of Ban Kulin in 1189 to the prince and citizens of Dubrovnik, and in 1190 he was present at the conclusion of an agreement with the prince Miroslav of Hum. According to Čremošnik, he abruptly lost his princely office in 1191 or 1192.

https://bl.lzmk.hr/clanak/krvas
-----------

Below are the official documents where the name Gervasio/Krvaš appears.

-----------
27 Septembris 1186 Ragusii
Stephanus Nemanja, Serbiae magnus županus et fratres Stracimir et Miroslav, cum ragusi, comite Gervasio pacem faciunt.

29 August 1189 Ragusii
Kulin, Bosnae banus, pactionem facit cum Gervasio, Ragusii comite, de mercatura Ragusinorum in Bosna.

17 Iunii 1190 Ragusii
Ragusini, Gervasio comite, foedus faciunt cum comite Miroslavo, fratre Stephani Nemanja, Serbiae magni župani.

https://archive.org/details/monumentaserbic00miklgoog/page/1/mode/1up
(the above documents are on pages 1-2 of the book or pages 22-23 of the PDF)

The document from 1189 is actually the Charter of Ban Kulin, the ruler of Bosnia at that time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_Ban_Kulin
----------

It is known that Gervase’s appointment as ruler of Ragusa ended sometime after 1190, because his protector, King William II of Sicily, died in November 1189, which caused a series of troubles in the Norman Kingdom of Sicily, so very probably Ragusa gained its independence from the Normans. It is not known what happened to Gervase after 1190, but is is known that his son Martinussi became a wealthy Ragusan merchant and the founder of the Martinussio (Martinušić) family, which is documented as having participated in commercial activities in the Balkans.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martinusio

By the fact that his son became a notable Ragusan, that means Gervase’s four year rule was appreciated by the Ragusans themselves. But who was Gervase?

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #13 : 18 Сентября 2023, 18:00:21 »
PART 2

Gervase the count of Ragusa was probably Gervase of Tilbury, a cleric, politician and writer born in England, who is presented as having spent the years 1183-1189 at the court of William II, Norman king of Sicily. Below I present fragments from articles about him and after them I present my argumentation.

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Gervase of Tilbury (Latin: Gervasius Tilberiensis; c. 1150–1220) was an English canon lawyer, statesman and cleric. He enjoyed the favour of Henry II of England and later of Henry's grandson, Emperor Otto IV, for whom he wrote his best known work, the Otia Imperialia. He travelled widely, studied and taught canon law at Bologna, was in Venice in 1177, at the reconciliation of Pope Alexander III and Frederick Barbarossa, and spent some time in the service of Henry II of England, and of his son, "Henry the Young King". Some time after 1183 Gervase found service at the court of William II, the Norman king of Sicily, who had married Henry's daughter Joan. From William he received the gift of a villa at Nola in Campania. After the King of Sicily's death in 1189, Gervase moved to Arles and became a judge of canon law. In 1198, Otto – the Holy Roman Emperor after 1209– appointed Gervase Marshal of the Kingdom of Burgundy-Arles, Gervase married into a local family (which bought him a palace). Gervase accompanied Otto to Rome in 1209 on the occasion of his Imperial coronation. The following year Gervase was enmeshed in the papacy's struggle with his patron Otto, who was excommunicated by Pope Innocent III. Gervase employed the next years, from 1210 to 1214, writing the Otia Imperialia ("Recreation for an Emperor") for his patron.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gervase_of_Tilbury

{automatic translation from French}
Gervais de Tilbury (born in 1152-1153 or 1155 and died in 1233 or 1234, even in 1237) is a cleric then knight, jurist, politician and writer of the Middle Ages. Gervais of Tilbury was born in England around 1152-1155, probably at Tilbury in the county of Essex. He received an education at the court of Henri II Plantagenêt, then in Reims between 1176 and 1180, under Archbishop William of the White Hands, uncle of the King of France Philippe II, the future Philippe Auguste. There he received minor orders, an essential condition for seeking ecclesiastical benefice. In 1177, he traveled to Venice where he was an eyewitness to the reconciliation meeting between Pope Alexander III and Emperor Frederick Barbarossa. A few years later, he resumed his law studies at the University of Bologna, a major center for teaching canon law, and obtained his doctor's degree and his master's degree there.

He attended the court of Henry II Plantagenet and was part of a group of clerics passionate about natural philosophy, who formed a cultural circle around his son, Henry the Young King. When Henry died suddenly in 1183, Gervais left England and lived for a time in southern Italy, at the court of the Norman king of Sicily, William the Good. He then left the clergy for knighthood. In 1189, upon the death of the latter, Gervais emigrated to Arles, at that time land of the Empire, where he exercised his talents as a jurist with the archbishops of Arles, Pierre Isnard (1183-1190), then Imbert d'Eyguières (1191-1202), and the counts of Provence Alphonse I (1181-1196), then his son Alphonse II. He married a relative of the Archbishop of Arles, Imbert d’Eyguières. The dowry included a palace in the city of Arles, where he lived.
[...]
However, the name of Master Gervais appears one last time in Arles in an arbitration award of June 1221 where he is described as Marshal of the imperial court of the Kingdom of Arles. Gervais de Tilbury remained in Germany after the disappearance of his protector [king Otto IV], and became provost of Ebstorf Abbey from 1223 to his death (1233 or 1234, even 1237).
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gervais_de_Tilbury

{automatic translation from Italian}
Gervasius of Tilbury (lat. Gervasius Tilberiensis; Tilbury, 1145-1155 – ca 1220 ...) was an English jurist, politician and writer. Gervasius of Tilbury was born between 1145 and 1155, probably near Tilbury, a town in the county of Essex. His family of origin was noble: his uncle was, as he himself informs, Patrick, Count of Salisbury and later governor of Aquitaine. He studied Latin, probably with a private tutor, as there are no documents relating to schools in Tilbury in the years concerned.[...] Thanks to the culturally lively environment of the Archbishop of Reims and his educational experience at the court of Henry II Plantagenet, Gervasio came into contact with classical culture, with the new courtly literature as well as with Arabic and Greek mathematics and science texts. It is certain that Gervasio was particularly linked, as a devotee, to Henry the Young King [son of Henry II of England], who ascended the throne in June 1170. [note] Following the king, the court alternated stays in England with those on French territory. Gervasio therefore had the opportunity to immerse himself in a trilingual environment: Latin, English and French, an experience traceable in his taste for etymological explanation and in the use of vulgar terms in his works.[...]

Gervasio therefore left England to reach Italy, initially teaching canon law in Bologna – a center of excellence in Europe for legal studies, where he acquired the title of magister – and subsequently going to Sicily, in the service of William II the Good. It is likely that Gervasio moved to Sicily by virtue of his loyalty to the House of Plantagenet: William II was in fact married to Joanna, daughter of Henry II and sister of Richard the Lionheart. Furthermore, in this period, Gervasio went to Naples, Nola and Salerno, as he himself revealed, «precisely in the year of the siege of Acre»: in fact he resided in Nola during the summer period, a concession from William of Sicily to escape to chaotic Palermo. In the same year William II of Sicily dies: it is not clear whether, after the death of the ruler, Gervasio remained in Sicily, but it is certain that in 1194 he was in Arles, with the archbishop Imberto d'Aiguières, as he himself reveals and as attested by the episcopal documents drawn up between 1198 and 1202. In these years Gervasio married a relative of the archbishop, thus linking himself to a family of the powerful nobility of the city and, furthermore, he worked as a judge of the county of Provence, as reported in the acts of the episcopal chancellery of 1207, 1216 and 1217.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gervasio_di_Tilbury

GERVASE of Tilbury (fl. 1211), author of the ‘Otia Imperialia,’ was no doubt a native of Tilbury in Essex, though he appears to have been brought up in Rome, and to have spent some years of his early life in Italy. He took orders, and studied and taught law at Bologna, having among his pupils John Pignatelli, afterwards archdeacon of Naples, with whom he kept up a friendship in later years. In 1177 he was present at the meeting of the Emperor Frederick I and Pope Alexander III at Venice. It is possible that he may have supplied an account of the interview to Roger of Hoveden, Gervase of Canterbury, and the chronicler known as the Abbot Benedict, for they seem to have had some common source of information (Stubbs). Soon after this he appears to have been in England for some time; he had interest at court, for he was connected with Earl Patrick of Salisbury, and the earl's son Philip was his close friend. He attached himself to the young king Henry, son of Henry II, wrote for his amusement a volume, now lost, called ‘Liber Facetiarum’ (ib. p. 914), and evidently was much distressed at his death, which took place on 11 June 1183. Possibly this event led to his leaving England. While still a young man he was a clerk in the household of William, archbishop of Rheims (cons. 1176, d 1202), brother of the third wife of Louis VII, the father-in-law of the young king Henry. [...] Like many other Englishmen at this period, he visited Sicily, and there entered the service of William II, the son-in-law of Henry II of England, and stood high in his favour. William gave him a house at Nola in order that he might have a place to which to retire from the heat and bustle of Palermo. He was at Salerno at the time of the siege of Acre by the Christians, 1190–1. As Earl Patrick of Salisbury was uncle of the Countess Ela, wife of William Longsword, uncle of the Emperor Otto IV, he had interest with the emperor, who was the grandson of Henry II. Otto took him into his service, and made him marshal of the kingdom of Arles. He seems to have married at Arles, for he had a palace there in right of his wife, and was related to Humbert, the archbishop, by marriage.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Gervase_of_Tilbury

Gervase of Tilbury: Medieval writer, b. probably at Tilbury, in the County of Essex, England, about 1150; d. at Arlington, about 1220. He is supposed to have been related to English royalty. During his youth he entered the service of Henry of Guienne, later he travelled in many parts of Europe, for a time studied canon law at Bologna, where for a brief period he also taught, and was afterwards at the court of King William II of Sicily till 1189. Upon the death of King William he settled permanently in Arles and was appointed Marshal of the Kingdom of Arles in 1198 by King Otto IV; in virtue of this office he accompanied the king to Rome in 1209 on the occasion of his coronation as emperor.
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06536c.htm
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I will summarize what is written above. Gervase was born in Tilbury, Essex, England around the year 1150. He studied in England (at the royal court), France (Reims) and Italy (Bologna), so he was fluent in English, French and Italian. He wrote books in Latin, so he was also fluent in Latin. He married a French woman from the family of Imbert d'Eyguières, the archbishop of Arles, his wife receiving a palace in Arles as dowry. After 1183 he was in the service of William II, the Norman king of Sicily, from whom he receives a villa in Nola, Campania, Italy as a gift of appreciation. After William II’s death in November 1189, he moved to Arles, France. Then later he moved to Germany in the service of King Otto IV. It is not known where he died, in Germany or in England.

Why I say that Gervase of Tilbury could be Gervase the Norman count of Ragusa? Because he was the best person for the job. William II of Sicily could not have found a better person to represent him in Ragusa.

1) He was fluent in Latin and Italian, the two official languages of Ragusa at that time. He was also fluent in French, which was the language spoken by the Normans. He was of course fluent in his native tongue, English, which was important because the Ragusans wanted to trade with England, which they eventually did.

2) He was very educated for that time and he studied law, which is very important for any ruler.

3) He had connections with the royal houses of England and France and also with the Catholic ecclesiastical authorities, including the Pope.


As can be seen, all the articles about Gervase of Tilbury speak about him being in the service of William II, Norman king of Sicily, from around 1183 to 1190. But they don’t say what he did for the king in that time period because at this time there are no documents about it.

We don’t know the Y haplogroup of Gervase of Tilbury, but it is possible that he had the I1 haplogroup. His uncle was Patrick, 1st Earl of Salisbury, who is presented as an Anglo-Norman noble. The places of burial for Patrick of Salisbury and his son, William Fitzpatrick, are known.

https://www.geni.com/people/Patrick-1st-Earl-of-Salisbury/6000000013453705955
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/63487389/patrick-fitzwalter_d
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/88886184/william-fitzpatrick

The county of “Essex” where Gervase was born had its name from the abbreviation (shortening) of “East Saxons”, a Germanic population that lived there from the 5th century CE.

The assumption that Gervase the count was Gervase of Tilbury could be verified by comparing the writing from the Ragusan documents written in Latin (assuming that some of them were written by Gervase the count) and the manuscipts of Gervase de Tilbury (also written in Latin).

It is interesting that the Martinussio family descended from count Gervase is mentioned as being involved in the salt trade in Albania alongside another Ragusan merchants from the Bona and Bonda families.

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{automatic translation from Albanian

In the year 1333 is mentioned in some documents that the noble merchant Savinus de Bonda dealt with the salt trade in Shirq, Lezhë and Vlorë.
In a document of July 12, 1333 it is said that Paul de Martinussio had to bring from Vlora to Shirq, a quantity of salt for the account of Sava de Bonda.
[...]
Thus in a document dated March 25, it is said that a quantity of salt from Šibenik or from Zara, which was the property of Sergolo de Bona was to be transported in the ship of Savinus de Bonda to the province of Drin, and if the sea was wild there, it was agreed not to enter the Drin, but to go a little further to the port of Saint Ginj.
[...]
Among the transporters, Paulus Martinusio is mentioned, who took the salt from Vlorë and transported it to Durrës, Dubrovnik and Shirq as we saw in the above document.

Edmond Malaj: Marrëdhëniet ekonomike dhe tregtare ndërmjet raguzës dhe trojeve arbërore
(page 24 of the article, page 18 of the PDF)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/360208775_Marredheniet_ekonomike_dhe_tregtare_ndermjet_Raguzes_dhe_trojeve_arberore
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In conclusion, Gervase the Norman count of Ragusa could be the man who brought the I-FGC22045 haplogroup to the Balkans.

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Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #14 : 25 Сентября 2023, 22:02:29 »
New update. This is a two part message.

PART 1

As I already said, my father’s ancestor was from Făgăraș, Transylvania, and this was confirmed by autosomal matches from that region. But my father has also autosomal matches from Croatia, especially from the Lika-Senj county, which is close to the town of Zadar and just opposite the island of Pag. That means a paternal distant ancestor with the I-FGC22061 haplogroup has lived there. We don’t know when this ancestor came to Transylvania and where he settled first. We presume it was around the 1600s. There is the possibility that he was a Bunjevac, a member of the Bunjevci family of catholic Vlachs, because there was a mass migration in 1600-1700 of the Bunjevci from the Adriatic Sea coast to Vojvodina (then in Hungary, now in Serbia) and I thought that maybe one of his descendants went from Vojvodina to Transylvania. I laready spoke about this in my previous message posted on 24 August.

There is also the possibility that he was a member of one of the Croatian noble families that migrated to Banat, and from there to Făgăraș in Transylvania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C4%83g%C4%83ra%C8%99

This hypothesis arose after reading the article named “Croatian Noble Refugees in Late 15th and 16th Century Banat and Transylvania – Preliminary Findings” written by Neven Isailović from the Institute of History in Belgrade. The article is written in English and can be downloaded for free from the link below. This is the summary written by the author:

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In the late 15th century, the Ottoman pressure on the Kingdom of Croatia within the Hungarian Realm became unbearable and many nobles decided to leave their native land and resettle in another part of the realm, where their status would be recognised and service to the ruler continued. The nobility of southern Croatia sought refuge in various parts of Hungary, among which were Banat and Transylvania. Their arrival to the easternmost part of the state mostly happened before the division between the Habsburgs and the Zápolyas and their loyalty after 1526 was usually dictated by the majority within the community they settled into. In Banatian and Transylvanian sources the Croats are identified by their conspicuous surnames and the epithet Croatus (Horváth) and, sometimes, by their noble predicates which specified their original main estate. Many of them acquired possessions in their new places of residence, married into local noble families and performed various duties, mostly as commanders of the cavalry or castellans of important fortresses. Even though they adapted to the new environment, it seems that the Croats kept close to each other, which can be observed through their documents, connections and family ties. Putting aside the most famous example of George Martinuzzi, this overview will include the short case studies of Martinuzzi’s compatriots – Mark Mišljenović of Kamičac, the Kučićs of Razvađe, the Šušalićs of Lukarić, Nicholas Kolunić, the Benkovićs and Bojničićs of Plavno, and Cosma Petričević of Raduč.

Neven Isailović: Croatian Noble Refugees in Late 15th and 16th Century Banat and Transylvania – Preliminary Findings (page 1)
http://rih.iib.ac.rs/1090/
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Then the author presents a list of these families discovered by his research.

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In the preliminary research I conducted during the last years, with the help of the literature and Romanian colleagues, I was able to identify more than a dozen noble families of Croatian origin in Banat and Transylvania, usually bearing the epithet “Horváth” i.e. “Croat”. Most of them originally came from southern Croatia (first to be occupied by the Turks). At this point I will mention only the most important ones and those who are very well documented – the Šušalić family of Lukarić or Oprominje, Šubić-Melić of Bribir, Šubić-Ugrinić of Rog, Petričević of Raduč, Kolunić and Perušić of Pset, Kučić of Razvađe, Bojničić and Benković of Plavno, Mišljenović of Kamičac and Uzdolje, Utišenović and Bartaković of Kamičac, Martinušević of Bogočin, Korlatović of Korlat. After their resettlement, most of these families were based in Banat, and the counties of Bihor (Hung. Bihar), Satu Mare (Hung. Szatmár) and Alba (Hung. Fehér), but some had estates or held important offices outside of these regions and counties as well.

Neven Isailović: Croatian Noble Refugees in Late 15th and 16th Century Banat and Transylvania (page 7)
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I would like to emphasize the Martinušević family, which I will talk about in more detail. In my opinion this family is part of the Martinušic family from Ragusa, descending from the Norman count Gervase. The Martinušević family was from Bogočin. In two articles about the fortress of Bogočin, one in English and one in Croatian, the name of the first owners is written as Martinušic, not Martinušević.

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The remains of the Bogočin fortress are located on an isolated cliff in the village of Bogatići Prominski, on the left bank of the Krka River, almost opposite the Krka monastery (Holy Archangel). It is not known when it was built, nor by whom. It was probably part of the defensive system of fortresses owned by the Nelipić family. According to the manner of construction and building, it can be dated to the 13th or 14th centuries. It is mentioned in written sources for the first time in 1486, as Bogochin. The aristocratic Martinušić family is mentioned as the first known owners of the fortress of Bogočin.

https://www.npkrka.hr/en_US/kulturna-bastina/srednjovjekovne-utvrde/bogocin-vilin-grad/

{automatic translation}
Later, Ban Talovac hands over the former Nelipić properties to the Martinušić family, despite the opposition of Duke Ivanc Novaković.
https://darkoantolkovic.wordpress.com/2016/10/21/nelipiceve-utvrde-na-rijekama-krki-i-cikoli/
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The fortress of Bogočin is very close to a cluster of 4 men with I-P109 haplogroups, very probably belonging to the I-FGC22061 branch, as can be seen from my map with those that have the I-P109 haplogroup in the Balkans. You can see a screenshot below, hosted on my Google Drive account.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Er96sn70occQYvtKJDLhVlGF-fNg_Y2L/view?usp=sharing

The article continues stating that many refugee noble families were from the region where George Martinuzzi was born, so it is logical to think that he was the one who invited them to migrate to Banat, but the author thinks this was not the case for the first wave of the migration, but maybe with the next waves.

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No thorough study of how these particular noble families arrived to the easternmost part of the Hungarian Realm has yet been made. Only a few cases of notable individuals were studied in more details, the most famous one being George Martinuzzi (Croat. Juraj Utišenović Martinušević). Since many nobles came from the relative (and some even from the immediate) vicinity of Martinuzzi’s home castle of Kamičac, it was assumed that he was the primary agent of their arrival.
[...]
In Latin sources from Hungary, Banat and Transylvania the Croats were identified by their conspicuous Slavic surnames and the epithet Croatus (much more often in Hungarian version – Horváth) and, sometimes, by their noble predicates which specified their original main estate. Yet, most of them acquired new possessions, married into local noble families and performed various duties, mostly as wardens or prefects of important fortresses, county officials or familiares of kings, princes, bishops and magnates. Even though they adapted to the new environment rather easily, since their nobility was the first factor of their identity, it seems that the Croats kept close to each other, at least in the first couple of generations, which can be observed through their documents, connections and family ties.

Their bond was not only of ethnic and linguistic origin. Almost all of these nobles came from a small region near the Krka river in southern Croatia, which was already pointed out as the home region of Martinuzzi.

Neven Isailović: Croatian Noble Refugees in Late 15th and 16th Century Banat and Transylvania (pages 7 and 13)
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George Martinuzzi was an interesting character, and remains very controversial to this day. He was at the same time a monk, a warrior, a financial manager and a politician. He definitely had the political power and the financial resources to help fellow nobles from Croatia to settle in Banat and Transylvania. Below is a little fragment from his Wikipedia article speaking about his origins.

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George Martinuzzi (born Juraj Utješenović [...] 1482 – 16 December 1551), was a Croatian nobleman, Pauline monk and Hungarian statesman who supported King John Zápolya and his son, King John Sigismund Zápolya. He was Bishop of Nagyvárad (now Oradea), Archbishop of Esztergom and a cardinal.
[...]
He was the youngest son of a Croatian lesser nobleman, Grgur Utješenović, and Anna Martinuzzi, who was descended from a Venetian patrician family. He was born in Kamičak Castle, near Skradin, on 18 June 1482.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Martinuzzi
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There is a mistake in the Wikipedia article, when it is said that Martinuzzi was from a Venetian patrician family on his maternal side. There is no such family with the name Martinuzzi. The only Venetian noble family with a somewhat similar name is Martinengo. According to the book about George Martinuzzi written by Adriano Papo and Gizella Nemeth Papo, the mistake about the Venetian family originated with the jesuit historian named György Pray who changed the text written in Latin by George Martinuzzi himself about his maternal origin. Instead of the original text ”matrem verro Annam, ex vetere et nobili prosapia Marthynusevitiorum natam” he used the text “matrem verro Annam, ex vetere et nobili prosapia Venetorum natam”. So, instead of the maternal Martinušević origin, he invented a maternal Venetian origin, which is not supported by the documents about the nobility from Venice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_nobility
https://www.academia.edu/42035357/Adriano_Papo_Gizella_Nemeth_Papo_Nem%C4%83surata_ispit%C4%83_a_puterii._Gheorghe_Martinuzzi_adev%C4%83ratul_rege_al_Transilvaniei_%C3%AEn_secolul_al_XVI-lea_Oradea_Ratio_et_Revelatio_2019_496_p (review of the book in Rumanian)

 

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