АвторТема: G-Z31275 - Аносиды?  (Прочитано 3880 раз)

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Оффлайн kardes

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Re: G-Z31275 - Аносиды?
« Ответ #30 : 17 Октябрь 2022, 03:57:26 »
Ensar Demirkan  Şipş, Shipsh   Turkey   G-S9409     H2a1

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Re: G-Z31275 - Аносиды?
« Ответ #31 : 03 Февраль 2023, 07:12:39 »
Видимо имя Анос было очень популярным с первых веков, как и имя Валерий?
Гай Валерий Флакк, поэма "Аргонавтика", написанная в 70 - 80-х годах I в. н.э. События поэмы разворачиваются в Колхиде, куда во время войны между двумя братьями, Ээтом и Персом, прибывают за золотым руном аргонавты. Они становятся на сторону Ээта, в то время как Перс поднимает против своего брата многие народы, среди которых мы не только встречаем алан, но и узнаем имя их вождя. "Анавсий, уже раньше ставший врагом за то, что Медея была обещана в жены албанскому тирану, выслал пылких аланов, за которыми вскоре последовал и сам, и свирепых гениохов. Увы, он не знал, в чертог какого чудовища стремился войти и какой ужас предстоял ахейским городам, будучи сам приятнее богам и счастливее в холостом дворце" [Флакк, VI, 40-50].
Вот только не согласен, что Анавсис переводится с осетинского как "ненасытный" [см. Гаглойти Ю.С., 1966, с. 80], здесь явно прозвище- Анавси(анафсин,анауси)- холостой(неженатый, без жены), и легенда сохранила не имя, а холостой статус аланского вождя.

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Re: G-Z31275 - Аносиды?
« Ответ #32 : 27 Ноябрь 2023, 07:11:47 »
Very interesting seeing the ancient connection between Loov and Anchabadze.

But what proof is there that Chikatuev have any connection with Chkotua? 

Wikipedia itself claims the Chkotua themselves are related to Chkheidze (formerly Chkhetidze).  Of course there was also the narrative that they paternally related to the Anchabadze.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D1%85%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%83%D0%B0

But the confirmed Kniaz Chkotua of Saberio had a representative tested.  He was G2a1 and he had no particularly close relatives.  His closest relatives are an Ahiskha Turk and another from Balkaria.

This seems like in the case of Machabeli where the narrative is false.


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Re: G-Z31275 - Аносиды?
« Ответ #33 : 30 Январь 2024, 22:11:33 »
В среде знати фамилия могла передаться и по материнской линии, такое уже происходило.

Оффлайн Rurikidfan

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Re: G-Z31275 - Аносиды?
« Ответ #34 : 30 Январь 2024, 23:32:02 »
В среде знати фамилия могла передаться и по материнской линии, такое уже происходило.

Yes, there could have easily been more people adopting surnames prior to the Chkonia family.  Maybe different branches of Chkotua need to be tested.
However I want to make it clear to anyone reading that the Chkonia branch that adopted the surname Chkotua from their maternal side was not the one that was tested.  They all live abroad. 
We tested a confirmed princely descendant of the original Chkotua from Saberio, he is in the genealogical book.  As far as I know Chkotua that held the princely title only lived in Saberio.  Their connection to the Chkhetidze of Bedia that served in a ecclesiastical capacity is unconfirmed.  Cyril Toumanoff made a mistake believing that Germane Chkhetidze lived in Abkhazia in 999 AD.  This is only because Germane Chkhetidze of Bedia who actually lived in the 17th century [source: Giorgi Kalandia] attached something to the bottom of the Bedia Chalice, which is now lost but I believe Brosset was the one that transcribed it.

Cyril Toumanoff only thought Chkhetidze and Chkotua were related based on the similarity of the names.  And probably because of the vague narratives that Chkheidzes were Greeks or Abkhazians in origin.  There are also petty nobles Chkhetia that lived in Samegrelo.  And their connection is also unverified.

In the Chachba-Shervashidze genealogical book and other genealogical books all the Knyaz Chkotua come from Saberio when they married into these families.
The connection between Chkotua and Anchabadze (Achba) what are the sources that they are related to another?  It is possible its another false narrative like the Machabeli one.

Toumanoff:
https://docplayer.fr/222091356-Les-maisons-princieres-georgiennes-de-l-empire-de-russie.html
Page 50-51

The officialy Chkotua website run by the Chkonia branch also mentions many members of the Chkotua family that I don't know have ever been verified by any historical sources but come from books published in the early 20th century.
https://tchkotoua.weebly.com/history.html

"the first known ancestor being BERO TCHKOTOUA, who founded the Natsimeri Monastery and built the family castle at Saberio (district of Samourzakany, Georgia), in the 9th century. They have since that time been feudal Princes of Saberio, and in the year 1214 Prince Demetrious Tchkotoua was Court Chamberlain to King George I, of Georgia. Pope Innocent III, in 1218, appealed to the feudal lords of the Kingdom of Georgia, to support the Crusade then proceeding. Princes Platon and Zourab Tchkotoua were among those who responded. The Princes Tchkotoua have been from time to time appointed Regents of the province of Samourzakany, by the Georgian Kings, notably in the fourteenth, fifteenth and eighteenth centuries."

https://imgur.com/a/AJJlMce
https://imgur.com/a/8H2s0SG

https://tchkotoua.weebly.com/references.html

"Traditionally it has its origin in the Byzantine Empire, the first known ancestor being BERO TCHKOTOUA, who founded the Natsimeri Monastery and built the family castle at Saberio (district of Samourzakany, Georgia), in the 9th century. They have since that time been feudal Princes of Saberio, and in the year 1214 Prince Demetrious Tchkotoua was Court Chamberlain to King George I, of Georgia. Pope Innocent III, in 1218, appealed to the feudal lords of the Kingdom of Georgia, to support the Crusade then proceeding. Princes Platon and Zourab Tchkotoua were among those who responded. The Princes Tchkotoua have been from time to time appointed Regents of the province of Samourzakany, by the Georgian Kings, notably in the fourteenth, fifteenth and eighteenth centuries. "

https://archive.org/details/compendiumofamer0007vari/mode/2up?q=%22george%20Tchkotoua%22
"in the 12th Century, George Tchkotoua is named prince' and Didebouli," grandee of Georgia"

https://ka.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%83%A9%E1%83%A5%E1%83%9D%E1%83%A2%E1%83%A3%E1%83%94%E1%83%91%E1%83%98
"Representatives of this family have been mentioned since the time of King Leon II of Abkhazia." "Rostom Chkotua mentions the 17th century Italian missionary Arcangelo Lamberti as the only feudal lord in the principality of Samegrelo who was not engaged in 'buying lead'."

https://www.radioatinati.ge/sheni-gvaris-istoria/article/59895-chqotua.html
"The oldest document, where this surname is mentioned, is an omphora inscription embroidered on a 15th century damdeg, which represents the finery of Jasia Chkotodze and his companion - Atabag's daughter Guldani."

https://vk.com/wall-137583536_16704
"Княжеское сословие в Самурзакане:
Чачба (с. Бедиа), Емхаа (с. Окум-Чхортол), Чкотуа (Саберио-Окум), Ачба (с. Набакеви), Шат-ипа (с. Река).
Притом Чкотуа считались коренными князьями Самурзакана, тогда как остальные были выходцами из других областей."

-------------
Iuri Chikovani checked the Abkhazian archives in the 1980s before the war in which the Georgian Army burned down the archive.  He constructed the genealogies of all the Knyaz families of Abkhazia.  Right now for the Chkotua family we only have his lists of members of this family from circa 1850-to present day, this is because Iuri Chikovani passed away before he could release the rest of his genealogical books and we only have lists of the confirmed living descendants and some of their ancestors for the family trees he didn't release. 
But I am very skeptical of these claims made by the Chkonia branch of these supposed historical figures of the Chkotua family that lived in the medieval period with no sources given. 
------------

in Iuri's book as far as I know there are no confirmed descendants of the Shat-Ipa from the princely branch that he could verify.  The genealogical table only mentions figures that lived in the early 20th century and no later.

Thankfully for the Inal-Ipa family, his lists include many living family members in the present day.  So it shouldn't be too difficult to test one and verify their relationship with Chachba

 

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