АвторТема: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109  (Прочитано 52880 раз)

0 Пользователей и 2 Гостей просматривают эту тему.

Оффлайн abmunteanuАвтор темы

  • Сообщений: 258
  • Страна: ro
  • Рейтинг +16/-1
Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #255 : 28 Марта 2026, 20:18:25 »
PART 4

NAME FOUND IN MONOGRAPHS: LONČARIĆ

Another Serbo-Croatian name appears in Gura Rîului, this time in the new edition of the monograph.

==============
{automatic translation from Rumanian}

It should be noted that in Valea Plaiului there was a stone quarry, called "pietrărie", from which stone was extracted for construction, especially for the city of Sibiu. The owner of the quarry was an Italian, named Mateiu Lonciarici, [from a] family that apparently came to Gura Rîului before 1800, together with the Pesamosca, Pius and Pizza families, from Udinese [Udine], Italy.

screenshot of the page
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17ztygyXMCgWZd8edeyEIYV3BhIaBgRoV/view?usp=sharing

Dumitru Ioan Arsenie: Gura Rîului -- Sat din Mărginime, Editura Universității Lucian Blaga, Sibiu, 2000 (page 187)
https://www.anticariat-unu.ro/gura-riului-sat-din-marginime-de-dumitru-ioan-arsenie-anii-2000-dedicatie--p321148
=============

It is clear that the name Lonciarici mentioned in the book is actually Lončarić, a Serbo-Croatian name, not Italian, which is similar to the Rumanian name "Olaru" [Potter].

==============
The Lončarić families are Croatian and come mostly from Crikvenica [in Croatia, on the Adriatic Sea coast, near Novi Vinodolski].

https://actacroatica.com/en/location/crikvenica

https://forebears.io/surnames/lon%C4%8Dari%C4%87
==============

What is said in the book is confirmed by the archives, where the marriage between Mátyás Lončarić (born 1876 in Tilișca) and Johanna George (born 1891 in Gura Rîului) appears. Coincidentally, or not, the groom was born in Tilișca, the village of Ioachim Muntean. This confirms the fact that there were families of Serbo-Croatian origin settled in the Sibiu area.

https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=11834628 (image 525)

screenshot of marriage certificate
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GVqOx3uoEO4fnaogB1PsCEr0FIJnIb5p/view?usp=sharing

The descendants of the Lončarić family are now called Lonciarici and continue to live in Sibiu County.

https://locatefamily.com/L/LON/LONCIARICI-1.html

There is a village called Lončari near Gacko, in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The name Lončarić may come from there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon%C4%8Dari,_Gacko

There is a page dedicated to the Lončarević surname on the Poreklo website, where several people with this surname have provided genealogical information about their family in the comments.

===============================
{automatic translation from Serbo-Croatian, adapted by me}

Milan
The surname originates from the year 1492 in the village of Lončari in Bosnia, where pottery was made during the Turkish occupation, so the village was named after them. The surnames Lončar, Lončarić and Lončarević have their origins there. The feast day [Slava] is St. George's Day [Đurđevdan in Serbo-Croatian].

------------

Ž. Lončarević
For 4 generations my family has been born in the Subotica area [North Bačka, Vojvodina], but it is not known where they came from before.

------------

V. Ananić
LONČARIĆ (m), in Lončari (Gacko). The surname could come from the name of the place where they settled or from the craft (potter) of one of their ancestors.

------------------

A. Lončarević
Hello, I am a second generation Lončarević from Vojvodina. My great-grandfather Dušan came from Dalmatia (Benkovac or Kula Atlagića, [Croatia]). His surname was Lončar, but before or after World War I he added the suffix "-ević". Our feast day is Djurdjevdan [St. George's Day].

------------------

Violeta
My great-grandfather comes from the village of Draksenić, near Kozarska Dubica [on the northern border between Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia]. Milan Loncarevic. Feast day is Djurdjevdan. His last name was probably Lončar, to which he added "-ević" after fleeing to Serbia... after killing a Turk on his land.

-----------------

R
Hello, my Lončars are from the neighboring village of Međeđa [near Draksenić] and we also celebrate Djurdjevdan. In Serbia, we from Međeđa are only in Inđija and Zrenjanin [Vojvodina], where did you settle? According to the stories of the elders and some research, we are descended from Laza Lončari, who came to Kozara [Bosnia-Herzegovina] in the 18th century from the village of Vodoteč in Lika (the hamlet of Škalić). They immigrated to that area in the 16th century, after the Turkish invasion, and most of the Lončar families come from the village of Lončari in the municipality of Gacko, right near the source of the Neretva River. We have always been Orthodox, probably of pre-Slavic origin.

https://www.poreklo.rs/2012/02/22/lon%C4%8Darevi%C4%87/?script=lat
=====================

Оффлайн abmunteanuАвтор темы

  • Сообщений: 258
  • Страна: ro
  • Рейтинг +16/-1
Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #256 : 28 Марта 2026, 20:18:55 »
PART 5

NAME FOUND IN MONOGRAPHS: LONČARIĆ (continuation)

The fact that the Orthodox Lončar/Lončarić/Lončarević families celebrate St. George's Day [Đurđevdan = Djurdjevdan] and that they come from the village of Lončari near Gacko may suggest that they have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup. This is because Djurdjevdan is also the Slava (religious tradition) of the Drobnjak tribe, and Nikola Rašković Drobnjak, the Vlach prince of Gacko, had haplogroup I-FGC22061. However, so far Poreklo has only tested three men with the name Lončar/Lončarević, two of whom have haplogroup R1a, and the third haplogroup I1, but not closely related to the Drobnjak haplogroup. None of the three, however, originate from the Gacko area. As an occupational surname related to pottery, it is expected that men named Lončar/Lončarić/Lončarević would not be genetically related to each other and would have a variety of Y haplogroups.

Matches who have ancestors with the Lončar surname:

1) A. Đermek is a match (9 cM) on MyHeritage. His sister and two sons are also matches. He has a Lončar-Ilinić ancestor born in 1765 in Poljanica Bistranska, a village near Zagreb, Croatia.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17QJcHnDNrndc7ybDxA5s2s3WJeIBe1tw/view?usp=sharing (match)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14SHNwP0sCcWZdOBuJJL9MXG0HWqgP_Kd/view?usp=sharing (tree)

2) S. Cinthio is a match (8 cM) on Ancestry. She has an ancestor named Mara Lončar/Pekić, probably born in Gradac, near Mostar, Bosnia and Herzegovina. She has many ancestors from Vrdi, Bosnia and Herzegovina, including Matija Čarapina (b. 1730). Interestingly, my father has a match on FTDNA named M. Carapina, whose paternal lineage (haplogroup I2) is also from Vrdi, and he is a common match with E. Knezevic.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_91jO0HR0-20snD6ZgZh3O1aRlJpgle6/view?usp=sharing (match)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F4TCRVhcsiKZ90rMrmfIwD0gyeuDLqj3/view?usp=sharing (tree)

3) V. Kopilas is a match (7 cM) on Ancestry. He has an ancestor named Jozo Loncar (Skutor), born in Podbablje, Split-Dalmatia, Croatia.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qxpGlO-xmOLnyLRSkW0-Gu9uMRekvNGB/view?usp=sharing (match)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10sOeBEytVHYfyYveM83ogvC4m7ofIaca/view?usp=sharing (tree)

In conclusion, Lončar/Lončarić/Lončarević could be the name of the ancestor from the Western Balkans, but confirmation is needed through a Y-chromosome DNA test of a man with one of these names, or of one with the name Lonciarici, test that would reveal haplogroup I-PH3895.

P.S.

YSEQ is one of the companies that do DNA tests for genealogy purposes, including a WGS test, which analyzes the entire genome in detail. However, I didn't know that they also do Ancient, medieval DNA tests, but a message from 19.11.2025 posted on the YSEQ Facebook group confirms this.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/YSEQDNA/posts/25064153603237034/

On the other hand, from the same Facebook group we learn that Thomas Krahn, the founder of YSEQ, was in Belgrade between 22-25.05.2025 where he spoke at a conference on genetics. On this occasion, he organized a "Meet and Greet" event for genealogical genetics enthusiasts in Belgrade on 24 May. As can be seen from the message below, several of the leaders of the Poreklo Genealogy Society had a private meeting with Thomas Krahn, which is logical since Poreklo has ordered many DNA tests from YSEQ over time, so it is one of the company's important and stable clients.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/YSEQDNA/posts/9803840163028293/

I don't know what the people at Poreklo discussed with Thomas Krahn then, but considering that YSEQ now also does Ancient DNA tests, perhaps they could discuss DNA testing of prince Nikola Rašković Drobnjak in the future.
« Последнее редактирование: 30 Марта 2026, 18:37:04 от abmunteanu »

Оффлайн abmunteanuАвтор темы

  • Сообщений: 258
  • Страна: ro
  • Рейтинг +16/-1
Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #257 : 20 Апреля 2026, 20:38:17 »
This is a three-part message.

PART 1

I have recently received three responses to my multiple attempts to contact my father's genetic matches.

1) D. Rukavina is a 14 cM match on Ancestry. I talked about him in the previous message. I contacted him on Ancestry and I told him about the I-FGC22061 haplogroup and that there is a man named J. Rukavina who probably has this haplogroup, so he might have it too. I then told him that he could get an intermediate Y haplogroup for only $19 if he downloaded his DNA data from Ancestry and uploaded it to FamilyTreeDNA. He didn't respond, so I later wrote him a short message on Facebook on 25.03.2026, to which he replied after about ten days (in the meantime he also read the more detailed message on Ancestry). He told me that his father is Croatian and grew up in Zagreb. He then agreed to help my genealogical research, but that he didn't want to pay anything to upload the data to FTDNA. I'm putting a screenshot of his message below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G5ijG7Nh4D9h2KU-_QsXsj_jZzPZ8D24/view?usp=sharing

I replied the next day on both Ancestry and Facebook, telling him that uploading data to FTDNA is free, the optional payment being linked to unlocking additional functionality and information, for example haplogroup Y. On 9.04.2026 I sent him another message on Facebook telling him about the discount offered by FTDNA until 30.04.2026, during which the Y haplogroup unlock is only $9. Although I obviously would have wanted to know his Y haplogroup, in the end I would have been happy with the free upload of his data to FTDNA, because I would have known the location of the two DNA segments that he shares with my father, information that Ancestry doesn't provide, but FTDNA does. However, since then he hasn't replied to me or read the second message on Ancestry. He most likely didn't upload his DNA data to FTDNA, because he didn't show up as a match there. He obviously is not interested in genealogy, so I haven't sent him another message.

But about the intermediate Y haplogroup, a recent experience makes me think it's not such a good deal for $19 anymore. It's still a good deal for $9, or when unlocking for free with a code that's valid once a year during the RootsTech genealogy conference in March. Let me explain.

2) T. Kastelein is an 11 cM match on Ancestry. According to the ethnicity estimate, he has 71% Scandinavian DNA and no Balkan or Eastern European DNA. According to his tree, and also according to a tree that I found on FamilySearch, apart from the Scandinavian ancestors on his paternal Dahl and maternal Dahlström lines, he has mostly British ancestors and some German and Dutch ancestors.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PzLUIc243kWaIuwlKXqrjXTVigszb0o_/view?usp=sharing (match on Ancestry)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LdhRMou7oJ5p0PGhERt423mlH9xfdLIs/view?usp=sharing (ethnicity estimate)

I contacted him on Ancestry and asked if he has a GEDmatch account, so I could see the shared DNA segment. He created a GEDmatch account and comparing the kits showed a shared 12 cM segment right at the beginning of chromosome 12 (191,619 - 4,406,281). A similar (1,687,110 – 3,871,581) but smaller DNA segment is found in S. K. Lindgren, a Swede who is a 21 cM match on MyHeritage. However, the common matches with T. Kastelein on GEDmatch have mostly British surnames, and some have U.K. e-mail addresses. But none of these has the segment on chr. 12.

T. Kastelein - match on GEDmatch
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1si8oB8m1D1c7Dr0HFpr1d0hjLdGvAoJw/view?usp=sharing

T. Kastelein - shared DNA segment
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14bPIHditW79_fNQq67hU6ChOYNdAuIcw/view?usp=sharing

SK Lindgren - match on MyHeritage
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ComtRIh3hgwuo4g1SNIG0dTaiMZwtSv-/view?usp=sharing

SK Lindgren - shared DNA segments
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IdH0lguMHMlghscylJ6zUmob3BMKjM8K/view?usp=sharing

I then convinced T. Kastelein to upload his DNA data to FTDNA to get the Y haplogroup for the discounted price of only $9. To my surprise, he is not a match for my father on FTDNA, just for me and my sister. But the segment shared with me is almost the same segment shared with my father, 10 cM on chromosome 12 (190,980 - 4,338,646). The fact that it's not a match with my father is a false negative result, which I've seen not only at FTDNA, but at all the other major DNA testing companies, so I wasn't too surprised.

T. Kastelein - match on FTDNA
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O2y_hQkCeOVpH2nsQfMxlvaWNcLbXyyp/view?usp=sharing

T. Kastelein - shared DNA segment on FTDNA
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-oEh4XsHsxTQzz_m7ZSa3oMq7hn9yhxZ/view?usp=sharing

I was obviously interested in the haplogroup received by T. Kastelein from FTDNA, and that's where I was really surprised by the result. FTDNA made a stupid decision not to show the Y haplogroups obtained by those who transferred their data from other companies, that's why his haplogroup is not visible in the screenshot. But I asked him and he told me that he received the I-S63 haplogroup.

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-S63/story

The surprising thing is that haplogroup I-S63 is extremely old, having appeared 6000 years ago. Until now, the intermediate haplogroups offered by FTDNA for those with autosomal DNA transfer were newer, up to 4000 years old. For example, I transferred my DNA data from Ancestry in 2019, when I paid the $19 unlock fee. Later, in 2024, I received from FTDNA the I-P109 haplogroup, whose age is 3700 years.

B. Munteanu - intermediate Y haplogroup
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14-xVy_7vyKoZ8DGg3Ge6gmr--ZCeVbZj/view?usp=sharing

Haplogroup I-S63 was recently introduced by FTDNA as a sub-branch of I-M253 and the parent branch of I-DF29. The reason for its introduction is not clear, just like the reason for the introduction of haplogroup I-M170 as the parent branch of haplogroups I-M253 (I1) and I-M438 (I2) is not clear either. Unfortunately, the appearance of these two new haplogroups was associated, as far as I can see, with significantly older intermediate haplogroups, therefore of lesser value. Normally the intermediate haplogroup of T. Kastelein should have been a sub-branch of I-DF29 or I-Z17954 (the other large branch of I-S63). The fact that he received haplogroup I-S63 probably shows a change in FTDNA's policy regarding intermediate haplogroups, in this case a decrease in their quality while keeping the same price. I linked below a screenshot comparing the position of the two haplogroups in the I1 (I-M253) haplotree.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TuctMeznbLEcgXe57QcTp4WowfVOcIwa/view?usp=sharing

It's not clear whether the same decline in quality is reflected in the intermediate Y haplogroup received by those who purchase the Family Finder (FF) autosomal test from FTDNA. Until now, those who bought the FF test received a newer intermediate haplogroup than the one received by those with autosomal transfer from another company. For example, they received haplogroup I-S14887 (2900 years old) instead of I-P109 (3700 years old). Basically now it becomes more convenient to buy the discounted FF test ($39) than pay the $19 unlock fee, because the intermediate Y haplogroup from FF will be newer than a basal I-S63 type haplogroup. Perhaps that was actually FTDNA's intent as well, encouraging the purchase of the Family Finder test and discouraging the autosomal transfer to find out haplogroup Y.

Оффлайн abmunteanuАвтор темы

  • Сообщений: 258
  • Страна: ro
  • Рейтинг +16/-1
Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #258 : 20 Апреля 2026, 20:39:13 »
PART 2

3) D. Muntian is a 12 cM match on 23andMe. She was born in Odessa, and her maternal grandparents were born in Russia. She does not mention where his paternal grandparents were born, but mentions two ancestors' names, Komarov and Sorokin.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13cVbsTRJrdO_ccO6QKtqTWeXHmJksQY9/view?usp=sharing (match)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xFdqy4YrN8xwxveEIvlhmojv-myZeuFJ/view?usp=sharing (grandparents' names and place of birth)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OD3Kb4QvG9NdEep0wbrcoXTC2rIidtHv/view?usp=sharing (ethnicity estimate)

I contacted her and asked if Muntian is her maiden name and if so, where the Muntian line originated from. She replied that Muntian is her maiden name and her father was born in Crimea, but she doesn't know the place of birth of her paternal grandfather. I also responded by saying that it is possible that the genealogical relationship is on her Muntian line, but this can only be verified by a DNA test at FTDNA or 23andMe, that detects the Y haplogroup of the Muntian line. This time she didn't respond, so I wrote her another short message after 2 weeks, to which again I did not receive an answer. I am attaching a picture of my messages and her reply below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OmCxqymd5t50Ow4610YKtvmotLcdw_z9/view?usp=sharing

The Muntian surname is a variant of Muntean, found especially abroad, where this transcription was used based on pronunciation or due to the non-existence of the diphthong EA in the target language, being replaced by the diphthong IA. The largest number of Muntian families is in the USA, but there are also several Muntian families in Rumania in the counties of Sibiu, Brașov, Alba, Caraș-Severin, Gorj, Hunedoara and Arad.

https://www.locatefamily.com/M/MUN/MUNTIAN-1.html

My assumption that the relationship is on the Munteanu - Muntian line is mainly based on the common matches, which are the vast majority from the Balkans, including the Western Balkans:

- J. Brkljača's grandparents are from Slivnica and Vinjerac, Posedarje region, near Zadar, Croatia.
- F. Matosevic has paternal grandparents from Knapići and Opatija, Croatia, and maternal grandparents from Bosnia-Herzegovina.
- M. Rubic has paternal grandparents from Croatia, but he doesn't say the exact place.
- I. Velickovic is of Serbian origin, with grandparents from Vranje, Despotovac, Niš and Bela Palanka.
- M. Piljojčić is of Serbian origin, with paternal grandparents from Vrdila, Kraljevo.

There are other common matches with Serbo-Croatian surnames: Bakija, Vicic, Kocovic, Tomic, Piecuch, Smolich. But there are also shared matches of Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian and even Italian origin, alongside of course Rumanian matches. The common DNA segment is clearly of Balkan origin, possibly Vlach.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UfG7MRgPvC54-8cPyLIjEU3v8li22u5J/view?usp=sharing (shared matches 1)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zJIn2Rn6UrsT-q-iVsISnwwJCZtr2iDa/view?usp=sharing (shared matches 2)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A2iO2Q5X0mFAws_vZS2ebCurbVNlpo_A/view?usp=sharing (shared matches 3)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-tvy1m0SXgRls0jq4VQb2N31IGVeSeDh/view?usp=sharing (shared matches 4)

Most of these matches have the same shared DNA segment, located on chromosome 17. Currently 23andMe only allows viewing of shared DNA segments with a paid subscription, and I don't feel comfortable paying for a feature that has been free for a long time. But some matches are also present on FTDNA (Hayes, Brassard, Stereff) or MyHeritage (Piljojčić, Bostrom), where it can be seen that the common segment is on chromosome 17. I also have an older screenshot from which it follows that D. Muntian also has the segment on chr. 17. Below are screenshots of some of the matches that have this segment on FTDNA or MyHeritage.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1olHvd_bPKlVK_9hCi8wU4R2TH_3u1Pfq/view?usp=sharing (FTDNA 1)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iMO8PqQdV-CJYK_URo_IJaVHXADRlx3i/view?usp=sharing (FTDNA 2)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y2NBRQGgTiGfMoJBhqJPCmLJvj8GlZdE/view?usp=sharing (MyHeritage)

I assume that this segment on chr. 17 which appears in quite a few shared matches was inherited from my father's ancestor from the Western Balkans who brought haplogroup I-PH3895 to Transylvania. Circumstantial evidence in favor of this hypothesis is the presence of this segment in B. Drobnjak, who, although he doesn't have the Y haplogroup typical of the descendants of the Drobnjak tribe, originates from the Drobnjak region of Montenegro.

However, there is also evidence that is contrary to this hypothesis. M. Warhurst, who is a match on FTDNA and has the segment on chr. 17, also has another shared segment, this time on chr. X. Unfortunately, M. Warhurst doesn't have a family tree, nor did he respond to the message I sent him.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1azRUXQPUuoh3OVD6sJfXrmtQ8dAE_dXS/view?usp=sharing (match)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dSsvGJla8YxWmuBK1H_3Dq161sZ3SLpg/view?usp=sharing (shared segments)

The presence of the DNA segment on chr. X means it was inherited from the mother, because males inherit the X chromosome from their mother. It seems logical to think that the segment on chr. 17 was also inherited from the mother, just like the one on chr. X. But things are not quite like that, as it is possible that the autosomal segment is inherited from the father and the X segment from the mother. To prove this, I will give my own example.

There is a match on FTDNA called L. Manley who shares a segment with my father on chr. 22. With me she shares the same segment on chr. 22 and in addition a segment on chr. X. So the presence of a shared autosomal segment and a shared X segment does not necessarily imply their origin from the same parent. This leads me to believe that the segment on chromosome 17 mentioned above was inherited through the paternal line and probably came from the ancestor with the Drobnjak haplogroup.


C. Munteanu - shared DNA with L. Manley
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MWM1cCIu691QVFVtwd0aU2ODEKeWCXjv/view?usp=sharing

B. Munteanu - shared DNA with L. Manley
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17dKTA0--MwEV51-AX4F09IcRaDlF8xs7/view?usp=sharing

Оффлайн abmunteanuАвтор темы

  • Сообщений: 258
  • Страна: ro
  • Рейтинг +16/-1
Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #259 : 20 Апреля 2026, 20:40:04 »
PART 3

According to my research, my father's ancestor from Transylvania was most likely a Mocan (sheep owner) from Făgăraș or Mărginimea Sibiului who migrated to Oltenia due to the worsening economic conditions in Transylvania at that time. It remains to be found how D. Muntian's paternal ancestor arrived in Crimea.

The answer lies in a book written by the historian Ștefan Meteș, dedicated to the emigration from Transylvania in the 13th-20th centuries. There is a chapter called "Emigration of Romanians from Transylvania to Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria and America", from which I will quote some fragments.


=================
{automatic translation from Rumanian}

In Russia, [the Transylvanians] began to emigrate especially in the 18th century because of religious persecution, Austria with its rulers wanting to forcefully convert them to Catholicism. However, they did not want to leave the law [faith] of their parents at any cost, but rather left for foreign, but orthodox lands, in order to save their faith. [...] We know that Romanian sheep from Transylvania roamed the rich plains of the Romanian principalities [Wallachia and Moldavia] from ancient times, and even crossed their borders. Of course, the provision in the Turkish-Polish peace treaty of 1577 refers to them as well, by which Romanian shepherds are allowed to cross the Dniester with their flocks for grazing. [...] Transylvanian shepherds, skilled and clever, made good profits through their flocks even on lands so far from their homes. After 1812, part of these shepherds went to Dobrogea, and others remained under the new Russian domination.
[...]
Throughout the 19th century, and especially after the customs war [with Austria-Hungary] of 1885, a lot of shepherds from around Sibiu: Cacova, Sibiel, Săcel, Vale, Săliște, Galeș, Tilișca, Rod, Poiana and Rășinari and from other villages Poiana Sărată, etc., crept into southern Russia. The places where these shepherds brought their flocks were: Crimea on the borders of the cities of Evpatoria, Karassubasar [Belogorsk], Simferopol, Yalta, Livada and Sevastopol on the shore of the Black Sea, then in the land of Molojna at Yekaterinodar, Melitopol and Mariupol on the shore of the Sea of Azov, in the Caucasus at Krasnodar and in Kuban, on the valley of the Terek River with the cities of Vladikavkaz and Malcik and on the valley of the Kuma and Manych [Маныч] rivers leading to the Caspian Sea and in numerous villages of the land and down to Baku, Batumi and Tbilisi. We find them in Cherkasy, Taganrog, and Rostov-on-Don, then on the Volga and Tsaritsyn (Volgograd), Astrakhan and Zimonovnik, in which city the shepherd Oprea Lupaş was the owner of 2 rows of houses. The Romanian [Transylvanian] prisoners from the First World War discovered on the middle and lower reaches of the Volga river many shepherds and Romanian [estate] owners from Transylvania, so in the Samara Governorate lived a big [estate] owner, who had been a shepherd in 1877, in the town of Buguruslan: Petru Smoală from Săliștea Sibiului. In Dubăsari, many rich shepherds from Mărginimea Sibiului settled in a leading role in this market on the left side of the Dniester [river]. In Siberia, in Omsk, the shepherds N. Oancea from Săliște and I. Rîbu from Rod had estates, [and] two other shepherds from Mărginimea Sibiului were buried there: Dumitru Miclauș from Tilișca and Gh. D. Taban from Cacova.

Ștefan Meteș: Emigrări Românești din Transilvania în Secolele XIII-XX (Editura Științifică, București, 1971) - pages 82-87
[Romanian Emigrations from Transylvania in the XIII-XX Centuries]
=================

In conclusion, it is very likely that D. Muntian's ancestor was a shepherd from southern Transylvania who migrated to Crimea. I have said in the past that it is possible that haplogroup I-FGC22045 is also found in Russia. This can be confirmed if the Muntian family from Crimea turns out to have haplogroup I-PH3895, which obviously needs to be proven with a Big Y or WGS test.

Оффлайн abmunteanuАвтор темы

  • Сообщений: 258
  • Страна: ro
  • Рейтинг +16/-1
Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #260 : 08 Мая 2026, 19:20:30 »
I continued the research about the Munteanu ancestor from Transylvania using autosomal matches.

D.H. is a match for my father on Ancestry (33 cM on 3 segments).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sZToa2X21viavh2lJX7ltgG7_SnKK0x7/view?usp=sharing

He has a small family tree, but I don't have an Ancestry subscription, so I can't see it. Since it's a match with a moderate amount of shared centimorgans, I contacted DH and asked him what his grandparents' names were and where they were born. He gave me the following information:

paternal grandmother: Maria Gârbacea (Bran-Moieciu, Brașov County)

paternal grandfather: Dumitru Holostenco (Ukraine)

maternal grandmother: Maria Vașik (Zărnești, Brașov County) of Polish descent

maternal grandfather: Ioan Banu (Zărnești, Brașov County)

screenshot of DH's message:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wpNOAwNn2f3CdyKayKpQj4Bly5xBilD4/view?usp=sharing

My father has no other matches with the ancestral names Vașik or Holostenco and only two matches with Banu ancestors, from Vîlcea County, respectively the Republic of Moldova, so very likely unrelated to DH's grandfather. There are also no matches with the name Gîrbacea / Gârbacea. The only possibility left is that DH has Munteanu ancestors.

So I searched the internet archives for the name Gârbacea and indeed it is frequently found in Moieciu de Jos, near Bran.

https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cautare-text/?ts=garbacea&pg=1&pgs=100&cs=3&srt=0&sro=1

In the birth registers from 1907-1912 in the Bran-Moieciu-Măgura-Fundata-Peștera area, both surnames, Munteanu and Gârbacea, are found. The name Gârbacea appears most frequently written Gerbacea, because in Hungarian there is no Î sound (also written as  in Rumanian).

For example, in the birth register below, the name Gerbacea appears starting with picture 9, with many children born with this surrname, for example 15 girls named Maria Gerbacea.

https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=10734846

A screenshot from the register shows the names Munteanu and Gerbacea from Moieciu de Jos (called "Alsó Moécs" in Hungarian) written very close to each other.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15csIVJc-gqQdwpzZr4dkDaVKc31L0psW/view?usp=sharing

Mai mult, am găsit chiar și o căsătorie Munteanu - Gerbacea în 1907 în Moieciu de Jos. Este în primul PDF de la pagina de mai jos, exact pe prima filă a registrului.
Maria Munteanu (părinți: Preda Gheorghe Munteanu și Paraschiva Enescu) s-a căsătorit cu Janos Gerbacea (părinți: Tivadar Gerbacea și Katalin Olteanu).


Moreover, I even found a Munteanu - Gerbacea marriage in 1907 in Moieciu de Jos. It's in the first PDF on the page below, at the very beginning of the register.
Maria Munteanu (parents: Preda Gheorghe Munteanu and Paraschiva Enescu) married Janos Gerbacea (parents: Tivadar Gerbacea and Katalin Olteanu).


https://descopera.arhivelenationale.ro/cota/?cid=10743303

screenshot of the marriage certificate
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18hKgVU5E75tVxqpwSZJkKmh2oNR8RkMg/view?usp=sharing

There were therefore marriages between the Munteanu and Gârbacea families from Moieciu de Jos. Howevere, the common ancestor with DH is difficult to find, because the archives from Moieciu and Bran from the 19th century are not yet online.

But the interesting things do not stop there.

In picture 34 of the birth register mentioned above, is recorded the birth of Maria, daughter of Janos Gerbacea and Maria Gavenea from Fundata.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SCesFepfl_CwpefbDUCbmI1UXnYMA2fR/view?usp=sharing

I spoke in the message from 28.02.2026 about CM Gavenea, who is a Y-25 match for my father on FTDNA and has the I-P109 haplogroup. I said then that CM Gavenea is from Sînpetru, a village near the city of Brașov and that the names Munteanu and Gavenea are found in the indexed archives of Moieciu de Jos and the neighboring villages (Măgura, Peștera, Șimon, Fundata), located about 20-30 km southwest of the city of Brașov. The fact that the names Munteanu, Gârbacea and Gavenea occur in Moieciu de Jos and that my father is quite closely related to DH, who has a paternal grandmother named Gârbacea from Moieciu de Jos, makes me almost certain that CM Gavenea also has haplogroup I-PH3895, probably inherited from an ancestor named Munteanu.

The screenshot above also shows the birth registration of Ileana, the daughter of Mozes Cotinghiu and Maria Plumbota. And on page 8 of the registry, the names Gerbacea, Gavenea and Cotinghiu appear very close to each other.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vTvDUuvRycO7djZ0GRrlyICje5R4eP4w/view?usp=sharing

The surname Cotinghiu is very rare, but my father has a match A. Cotinghiu from Brașov on 23andMe.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14O3ZtUVcJJmYlfInVKJpLwN99oNOeGti/view?usp=sharing

Another rare surname that appears in the archives of Moieciu de Jos and neighboring villages is Cențiu, as seen in the registry below where the birth of Janos Centiu is recorded.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xgdQBkMvLcoIMRDcCJxckWhNgpOWe9d5/view?usp=sharing

My father has a match named S.C. on 23andMe, with the last name Cențiu and origin from Bran, as can be seen in the screenshot below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n-NMANvhO0-wzLT7PqBH7X-Eg3nuRbRK/view?usp=sharing

In my opinion, at least one of the Munteanu families from Moieciu de Jos and the surrounding villages has the I-PH3895 haplogroup and is very likely related to the Munteanu families from Șinca Veche and Vad, villages located 30 km from Moieciu de Jos.

map of the Făgăraș - Vad - Șinca - Bran - Moieciu de Jos area
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_gL_i1XuWJpDklJgUGxB9ItEgfa3F01B/view?usp=sharing

With this message I have finished researching the Munteanu lineage from the Făgăraș - Brașov area. The presence of Munteanu families with haplogroup I-PH3895 in that area is almost a certainty, only needing to be confirmed by Y-chromosome DNA tests of some Munteanu men living there.

In conclusion, autosomal matches, especially if they have rare ancestor surnames, are useful for genealogical research of the strictly paternal lineage, defined by haplogroup Y.


P.S.
Since February 2026 my messages are also posted on the Genealogica forum, which is the only Rumanian genealogical forum. However, the vast majority of Rumanians don't seem to be passionate about genealogy, so the forum doesn't have a lot of activity. Seeing this, I made some suggestions in order to increase the activity.

Suggestions for the forum
https://forum.genealogica.ro/index.php?topic=613.0

For example, based on my experience with the Poreklo and Molgen forums, I suggested the creation of a "Y Haplogroups" section, because on these two forums the majority of posted messages are about Y haplogroups. The forum owner listened to my suggestion and created the section, but at this time only me and him have posted in it. Let's hope others will also talk about their haplogroups.

Y Haplogroups section
https://forum.genealogica.ro/index.php?board=31.0

 

© 2007 Молекулярная Генеалогия (МолГен)

Внимание! Все сообщения отражают только мнения их авторов.
Все права на материалы принадлежат их авторам (владельцам) и сетевым изданиям, с которых они взяты.