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Re: I1 в Закавказье
« Ответ #180 : 18 Декабрь 2023, 22:53:47 »
The truth about the origin of the Albanian name Abaza can be found by Y-DNA testing. At this time there is only one Albanian with the name Abazi that has a public Y-DNA test result, and it is J-M172, a very generic haplogroup that doesn't offer any information about the ethnic origin of the paternal ancestor of that Abazi family. The Serb with the Abazović name from the Drobnjak region has the I2 haplogroup, so this proves he has a different paternal origin than the Albanian, even though they have the same surname.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/dna-results

There is an Abaza project on FTDNA.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/abaza/dna-results

The Russian Abaza family says that their paternal ancestor was Abkhazian and this was confirmed by a message posted by сɣнце on 25 September on the Poreklo forum. I have modified the message a little, by removing a few typos and adding some explanatory text in brackets.

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The Russian family Abaza got in touch with me and informed me that two tests on FTDNA for two direct male descendants of Abaza-pasha [Abaza Mehmed Pasha (1576-1634)] have been ordered and that the results will be done in a couple of months. Bear in mind that the lineage descending from Abaza-pasha´s daughter also bears the name Abaza although they are sons of Vasile Lupu [real name Lupu Coci], whose Y-chromosome they inherited. The Coci family originates from Albania and a.f.a.i.k. they bear the haplogroup R-L1029, the Dibra [Dibër] cluster, according to the tested males from Albania with the surname Coci. The reason why they contacted me is that Abaza is also a surname that occurs in my genetic clan I-A1328. The members of the Russian noble family Abaza believe that Abaza-pasha was of Abhazian origin but I doubt that. The results will bring some light into the origin of Abaza-pasha.

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg191718#msg191718
==========

We don't know which tests were ordered by the members of the Russian Abaza family, but their results must be ready by now.

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Re: I1 в Закавказье
« Ответ #181 : 19 Декабрь 2023, 07:45:26 »
Abaza people DNA searchers are in this forum too. But I never faced with I-FGC22061 results from that region. Your branch seems to be originally Balkan with no connections with Caucasus.

"Abaza" may have many meanings (Muslim name, local Balkan name or nickname and so on).

Does Abazovich have YDNA matches with Abazgoi?

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Re: I1 в Закавказье
« Ответ #182 : 19 Декабрь 2023, 22:01:45 »
There is a presumed connection of the I-FGC22061 haplogroup with the Abaza name. One of the men with the I-FGC22061>I-FT36856 haplogroup, A. Jakšić, claims that Pavle Abazović is his paternal ancestor. This can be seen on the page with results from the Serbian DNA Project.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/serbian-dna-project/dna-results

This claim by Jakšić is based on the genealogy of the Drobnjak tribe that is presented in the book about his family, written by himself. There are stories about the Drobnjak tribe and also documents, so Jakšić probably based his presumed genealogy on them. The book was available for purchase online, but I think it is no more. See the two screenshots below, taken from the book when it was available.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_1ucEgd0YZ6F5gPWrXaTTGW_B0OnasFM/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1a8_vaurHp-W9-B8yifeCjNjzKC2trnGL/view?usp=sharing

============
{automatic translation from Serbian}
I came to the realization that the Jakšić from Baltići in Sokolac (known as Savindan), Republika Srpska, from Glasinac, at the foot of Mount Romanija, are descended from the medieval Old Herzegovinian tribe Drobnjaci, the Novljan family, who are also the founders of Drobnjak. Our origin from Drobnja can be more precisely determined by the famous Kosovčić brotherhood (brothers  Đurjan and  Omakalo), the Omakalović group and the clan subgroup Abazović-Konjokrad, and can be directly traced back to the Middle Ages, more precisely from the middle  of the  13th  century or  about 800  years back  in time!

A. Jakšić
Поријекло Јакшића са Гласинца (The origin of the Jakšić family from Glasinac)
===========

Jakšić continues his research about the Drobnjak genealogy and maintains his claim that Pavle Abazović had the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, because he believes in the truthfulness of the Drobnjak genealogical tradition. But he knows that this tradition must be verified by DNA testing. He told me in an e-mail exchange that he hopes the remains of Pavle Abazović will be unearthed in the future and Y-DNA tested, an action that will not involve the Poreklo society.

===============
A. Jakšić: My cousin Konjokrad and I, originating both from the Glasinac region, although he happened to be born in France, organized and financed seven Y-DNA tests of today’s Drobnjak descendants. By our family tradition stories, that were passed down from generation to generation, we identified 18 families in the Glasinac region today (Republic of Srpska, B[osnia]-H[erzegovina]) that should be direct descendants from Drobnjaci tribe, Kosovčići brotherhood, from brothers Vojvoda Djurjan and Omakalo, and from, more precisely, Abazovići family group. We managed to test 7 last names, and 6 of them are confirmed to be as expected by family tradition, belonging to I-FGC22061>FT36856 (Konjokrad, Jaksic, Bojovic, Markovic, Jankovic, Starovic). Unfortunately, one Abazović sample that we tested turned out to be I2. Who knows what might have happened in this case in the past (adoption, rape, cheating, etc)? However, our Markovic guy, is descendant from Marko Abazović from 1812 who migrated from Glasinac, so we managed to actually “prove” that we are all from Omakalo and wider Abazovići family.

From my e-mail exchange with A. Jakšić

--------------------

{automatic translation from Serbian}
We are looking for two candidates for testing from Pošćenje, Slava Savindan, from the Drobnjak tribe, the Kosovčić brotherhood, the Omakalović group, and the Abazović family (I1-FGC22045>FGC22061>FT36856).[...] Our main goal is to confirm (and continue to build on) the existing genealogy and our common descent from Duke Pavle [Abazović], in the direct male line. A. Luburić [Serbian historian who wrote about the Drobnjaks] listed the names of five of Pavlo's sons, and then he also precisely lists the first known surnames that arise from his descendants, along with, of course, the ever-present main line of the Abazović surname. We have been working on completing this genealogy for two full decades, identifying many more newly created surnames of this family, especially during the 18th and 19th centuries, throughout Serbian countries, and especially from Glasinac, Vraneš and Krajina.

Duke Pavle Dragićević (Abazović) died heroically in 1645 during the Candian War on Smriječna in Piva along with, according to tradition, 300 warriors from Drobnjak and Piva. He was buried near the church in Pošćenje, and was remembered as an extremely brave, beautiful and literate man, he even had his own seal, and he also helped paint the narthex of the Piva Monastery in the period 1625-1626, financing the work of the most famous 17th century Zograf Jovan, who painted and other Serbian monasteries such as Hilandar and Morača.

The inscription on the tombstone of Duke Pavle was interpreted by two of our top experts, Š. Bešlagić and G. Komar, of which Komar came to an undoubtedly more precise interpretation, because that is how we also learned about the name from Duke Pavle's father, which was later confirmed in another record. For all that is stated here, it was preserved not only in the traditions from Drobnjak, which have so far proven amazingly reliable in their essence many times, but also in historical sources of the first order, such as facsimiles of original letters kept by the Kotor [Montenegro] archive, tombstone epitaphs and foundation records from the Piva monastery. I. As early as 1891, Tomić observed that the elders from Drobnjak "keep tradition as a trust" and that such evidence "may be more true than the acts of some dusty archive".

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg190878#msg190878
================

So, based on the Jakšić claims and the fact that my father has autosomal matches with the Abaza name, I researched a possible origin of the I-FGC22061 from the Caucasus (Abkhazia). It was before Jurjević (I-FGC22061 haplogroup) revealed his genealogical connection with the merchant families from Ragusa (Dubrovnik) that made me research more in depth the Norman theory of the haplogroup’s origin. Today I don’t think the Caucasus hypothesis is true for the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, but could be true for other I1 haplogroups from the Balkans, maybe some that are yet to be discovered.

Regarding the autosomal matches, there is a big problem. From what I’ve seen on the Poreklo forum, the Serbs who are interested in their paternal line do not use autosomal matching, only Y-DNA matching. This is why the vast majority have not taken autosomal DNA tests. For example A. Jakšić, when I spoke to him, told me that he did take an autosomal test at a time when he was not very knowledgeable about it, so he ordered the test at Living DNA. Of course, taking into account the number of tested persons at Living DNA, his test is useless for genealogy purposes. Very probably he has not bought an autosomal test for his Abazović relative who has the I2 haplogroup.

Of course, the surname Abaza can have different origins. This is what сɣнце said, on the thread about his haplogroup (I-A1328), shared with men having the Abaza name:

==============
{automatic translation from Serbian}
Your parent gives you a personal name, and Abaza is a surname, which you often don't choose yourself, but are called by your surroundings, so it is passed on to your descendants.
In modern Turkish, Abaz means Abkhaz, abaza is a rude word, so it is often not found in dictionaries, and means "horny, who wants to fuck, a pervert and with that meaning a range of shades to stupid"; in the Middle Ages, it could have meant only "potent" like our surname Prcać or Prča, which occurs in Timar as well as Abaza.
https://context.reverso.net/%C3%BCbersetzung/t%C3%BCrkisch-englisch/abaza

On the other hand, there is an Arabic personal name Abbas عباس but in our country it is not Abbas but Abaza.
There is also a princely family with the surname Abaza. Among them is Mehmed Abaza Pasha, son of Haider Pasha, Grand Vizier, Beglerbeg and Pasha of Bosnia and later of Vidin from 1628, born in Buda, with roots from Moldavia. Perhaps he was nicknamed Abaza Pasha because he was raised by his stepmother Abkhazka.
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0-%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B0

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=5691.msg156312#msg156312
============

The above message was posted 2 years before my message about the Abaza surname. I didn’t knew about it at that time, I only discovered it today. But it confirms that there are Serbs who believe that the surname Abaza could come from the ethnic name Abkhazian. In the thread about the Drobnjaks, in which I exposed my opinion about the etymology of Abaza, all the Serbs were convinced that Abaza comes from Abbas.

It is interesting that the I-A1328 haplogroup from the Balkans doesn’t seem to have a Caucasian or Turkish origin, but a Slavic one.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A1328/

However, we don’t know at this time the haplogroup of the men from the Russian Abaza family. Maybe their haplogroup is Caucasian.

 

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