Л.А. Вязов и др. География и хронология славянского расселения по данным археоге

[Камарицкий]

Судя по всему - как прошло время "болотных славян", так с опубликованием новых данных от акбари - прошло время "балто-славян" - в том смысле что их выставляли неким эталонным славянским образцом - теперь появились массы "южных славян"
Например такие образцы как - id:I47494 I47485 I47479 id:I47477 I47241 и тп под R-Y35 - их вообще там значительное количество
и по облику они немного другие чем те которые были до последнего момента

[superrug]

Судя по всему - как прошло время "болотных славян", так с опубликованием новых данных от акбари - прошло время "балто-славян" - в том смысле что их выставляли неким эталонным славянским образцом - теперь появились массы "южных славян"...

Неужели революция в умах генетиков, о необходимости которой всё время говорили Назин и я, свершилась? 

[Камарицкий]

Судя по всему - как прошло время "болотных славян", так с опубликованием новых данных от акбари - прошло время "балто-славян" - в том смысле что их выставляли неким эталонным славянским образцом - теперь появились массы "южных славян"...

Неужели революция в умах генетиков, о необходимости которой всё время говорили Назин и я, свершилась? 

скорее всего - ситуация становится более сложной и запутанной - и простыми теориями ее не объяснить

[Demer]

Для восточной границы распространения популяции Baltic_BA может служить образец
I45727.TW   N-BY10364   U5b2c      300 лет н.э. регион Восток

В поисках популяции Baltic _BA, теперь посмотрим на северную границу, и возьмем образцы Russia_IA_Ingria:

Образец s19_VII15_1  39 н.э. местный из кластера Estonia_IA.
-----------
Образец s19_VIII5_2   187 н.э.  из кластера Baltic _BA. Вероятное происхождение, Днепро-двинская культура или культура штрихованной керамики(?). Судя по данным археологии на оз.Ильмене уже было некоторое присутствие Днепро-двинской культуры. Показывает повышенную связь с I44901.

s19_VIII5_2.SG   Russia_IA_Ingria  187
   I44901.TW   21.99   unknown Baltic _BA
   I19068.AG.TW   16.45   unknown Baltic _BA
   s19_X14_1.SG   11.39   Estonia_BA
   s19_0LS11_1.SG   9.41   Estonia_BA
   Kivutkalns25.AG   7.89   Latvia_BA
   I19066.AG   7.68   unknown Baltic _BA
   Kivutkalns215.AG   7.65   Latvia_BA
   s19_X17_2.SG   7.10   Estonia_BA
   s19_VII15_1.SG   7.02   Russia_IA_Ingria
   
      R10836.SG   8.37   Lithuania_Marvele_Roman
      R6759.SG   7.04   Serbia_Roman
---------------

s19_VIII9_1  137 н.э.   Интересный образец, где Trzciniec несколько превалирует над Baltic _BA. Он не показывает связи ни с балтами, ни со славянами, но есть связь с рязано-окской BOL002. Это или обособленные пост-зарубинецкие группы, или какие-то лесостепные группы Украины/России. Пока можно их назвать "параллельное славянство".

s19_VIII9_1.SG   Russia_IA_Ingria   137  н.э.
        s19_X11_1.SG   10.16   Estonia_BA
   Kivutkalns25.AG   9.14   Latvia_BA
   s19_V14_2.SG   8.48   Estonia_BA
   s19_V16_1.SG   7.55   Estonia_BA
   
   BOL002_antiquity1240k.AG   8.33   Russia_Davydovskoye_Antiquity

Код: [Выделить]

Russia_IA_Ingria.SG:s19_VII15_1.SG__AD_39__Cov_22.43%,0.125205,0.106631,0.095412,0.097869,0.037238,0.023985,0.00658,0.018461,-0.000614,-0.022051,0.002273,-0.017684,0.028246,0.024084,-0.000814,0.008618,0.006258,-0.001014,0,0.007754,0.006239,0.009398,0.016515,-0.010363,-0.001197
Russia_IA_Ingria.SG:s19_VIII5_2.SG__AD_187__Cov_34.80%,0.134311,0.11577,0.106725,0.106914,0.048932,0.047969,0.015746,0.026076,0.006954,-0.051208,0.002923,-0.020082,0.035827,0.051333,-0.016151,-0.012994,-0.003651,-0.004307,0.003268,-0.001626,-0.0141,-0.006554,0.009613,-0.009158,0.000838
Russia_IA_Ingria.SG:s19_VIII9_1.SG__AD_137__Cov_25.59%,0.122929,0.119832,0.092017,0.075905,0.0397,0.031515,0.013161,0.018922,-0.011453,-0.023873,0.006496,-0.014387,0.022894,0.01679,-0.001764,-0.009281,-0.008736,0.006968,0.004148,-0.004377,-0.000499,-0.001237,-0.000986,-0.008917,-0.005389

[as5]

Образец s19_VIII5_2   187 н.э.  из кластера Baltic _BA. Вероятное происхождение, Днепро-двинская культура или культура штрихованной керамики(?). Судя по данным археологии на оз.Ильмене уже было некоторое присутствие Днепро-двинской культуры. Показывает повышенную связь с I44901.
---------------
s19_VIII9_1  137 н.э.   Интересный образец, где Trzciniec несколько превалирует над Baltic _BA. Он не показывает связи ни с балтами, ни со славянами, но есть связь с рязано-окской BOL002. Это или обособленные пост-зарубинецкие группы, или какие-то лесостепные группы Украины/России. Пока можно их назвать "параллельное славянство".

Эти сэмплы из контекста культуры тарандов и они без углеродной датировки. Может s19_VIII5_2 из эпохи Estonia_BA?..
А s19_VIII9_1 достаточно близок к Estonia_IA, чтобы привлекать кого-то со стороны.

[Wrongsky]

У кого то будут G25 координаты данных товарищей?

Упомянутые в посте, плюс ещё один диапазон номеров добавил.

Код: [Выделить]

"Пруссы"/"Балтоподобные"
Akbari2026:I42585.TW,0.135449,0.131003,0.085606,0.082042,0.035699,0.036535,0.00329,0.013615,-0.003477,-0.037905,-0.000487,-0.008842,0.02334,0.039773,-0.006243,-0.006629,-0.001304,-0.005194,0.000754,-0.007379,-0.001622,-0.008285,0.016515,-0.015183,-0.001676
Akbari2026:I42586.TW,0.136588,0.128972,0.075047,0.092378,0.044008,0.036256,0.012221,0.014538,-0.005931,-0.038634,-0.001786,-0.01124,0.015461,0.026286,-0.013572,0.012331,0.019297,0,-0.000251,0.014257,-0.017968,-0.00779,0.009737,-0.000723,0.001557
Akbari2026:I42587.TW,0.134311,0.125926,0.07731,0.068476,0.047701,0.036256,0.010575,0.013615,0.001023,-0.027335,-0.003248,-0.010341,0.016947,0.026836,-0.019001,0.018297,0.027511,-0.000507,0.006034,0.004252,-0.003369,-0.010881,-0.002342,-0.013616,-0.001557

Akbari2026:I42604.TW,0.130897,0.120848,0.082212,0.083334,0.044008,0.022869,0.008225,0.005538,0.001636,-0.029158,0.001786,-0.017984,0.019772,0.031516,-0.021444,0.004375,0.010431,0.001774,0.003645,0.002501,-0.006988,-0.000742,-0.00037,0.002651,0.006107
Akbari2026:I42605.TW,0.130897,0.126941,0.077687,0.073321,0.037853,0.028168,0.012221,0.014999,-0.002045,-0.031709,0.003248,-0.015286,0.026908,0.036883,-0.014115,0.00411,0.005867,-0.003294,0.003268,-0.002126,-0.007986,-0.004204,0.006039,-0.008194,0.001197
Akbari2026:I42606.TW,0.130897,0.118817,0.087869,0.090763,0.041546,0.032909,0.019036,0.019153,-0.003477,-0.03098,-0.006496,-0.01154,0.031219,0.043764,-0.019001,-0.012596,-0.000652,-0.005954,0.000503,-5e-04,-0.005116,-0.002226,0.012695,-0.013134,-0.003113
Akbari2026:I42607.TW,0.130897,0.131003,0.080704,0.070091,0.033852,0.034025,0.011751,0.010846,0,-0.029158,-0.003573,-0.018583,0.023488,0.032617,-0.013708,-0.001326,0.00013,-0.00076,0.010684,-0.001,-0.004991,0.00272,0.003697,-0.004097,-0.001676
Akbari2026:I42608.TW,0.127482,0.131003,0.083344,0.079135,0.038776,0.035977,0.011751,0.017538,-0.005522,-0.036265,-0.002273,-0.014387,0.025867,0.020368,-0.017236,0.009149,0.021383,-0.001014,0.000503,0.013757,-0.006988,-0.008779,0.008134,-0.00482,-0.002155
Akbari2026:I42609.TW,0.125205,0.128972,0.080704,0.072675,0.036314,0.028726,0.012456,0.013846,-0.00225,-0.025878,-0.008769,-0.006744,0.019475,0.038121,-0.015201,-0.012729,-0.005215,-0.005194,-0.003394,-0.006503,0.000374,-0.015086,0.011955,-0.000964,0.001796
Akbari2026:I42610.TW,0.132035,0.127957,0.078818,0.074613,0.03693,0.017012,0.00987,0.013153,-0.002454,-0.023326,-0.006008,-0.006594,0.021853,0.034406,-0.017779,-0.00769,0.008084,-0.000887,0.001885,0.001876,-0.012478,-0.002968,0.013434,-0.006627,0.004431
Akbari2026:I42611.TW,0.132035,0.116786,0.081458,0.078812,0.044316,0.021196,0.012221,0.014307,0.003477,-0.028793,0.001461,-0.010341,0.028692,0.023946,-0.014251,0.005171,0.011343,-0.00266,0.000754,0.003126,-0.010107,0.003339,0.012695,-0.013737,0.003233
Akbari2026:I42612.TW,0.124067,0.121864,0.072784,0.072029,0.044316,0.033188,0.013396,0.017307,0.000205,-0.029887,-0.005521,-0.018583,0.026313,0.020093,-0.013165,0.00358,0.008605,-0.000887,0.005154,-0.004377,-0.00287,-0.009027,0.005176,-0.00964,-0.001317
Akbari2026:I42616.TW,0.136588,0.121864,0.087115,0.075582,0.032621,0.03263,0.00564,0.012692,-0.010022,-0.037358,-0.004872,-0.013188,0.023637,0.025323,-0.017101,0.005967,0.015255,-0.000633,-0.002011,0.006378,-0.007861,-0.010387,0.010353,-0.008314,-0.004191
Akbari2026:I42617.TW,0.129758,0.118817,0.071653,0.058463,0.035391,0.02761,0.011986,0.01523,0.001227,-0.031162,-0.002598,-0.011989,0.020367,0.026148,-0.018729,0.005436,0.009779,-0.004307,0.00176,0.001376,0.00025,-0.000742,0.007025,-0.013134,0.002874
Akbari2026:I42618.TW,0.138864,0.126941,0.078818,0.077843,0.0397,0.03263,0.012221,0.014999,0.003272,-0.024055,0.00341,-0.009741,0.022745,0.030965,-0.013979,-0.006099,-0.008996,0.002914,0.002137,-0.000625,-0.007986,-0.005193,0.015159,-0.01458,0.005269

Akbari2026:I44891.TW,0.136588,0.123895,0.07467,0.078166,0.039392,0.03012,0.00893,0.015692,-0.002454,-0.03262,-0.002761,-0.008393,0.02334,0.027525,-0.014115,-0.00411,-0.007953,-0.003167,0.008296,0.001126,-0.006114,-0.007172,0.004807,-0.010001,-0.002036
Akbari2026:I44892.TW,0.133173,0.120848,0.07467,0.081396,0.041546,0.0251,0.010105,0.013615,-0.006136,-0.033531,-0.001137,-0.010641,0.023786,0.026561,-0.018051,0.005304,0.011995,-0.005321,-0.001131,0.006628,-0.003993,-0.000495,0.01023,-0.005422,0.004311
Akbari2026:I44893.TW,0.132035,0.121864,0.078818,0.065569,0.040007,0.021753,0.00517,0.010615,-0.004909,-0.031891,-0.010068,-0.01079,0.019921,0.038259,-0.012351,-0.00053,0.00352,0.00076,0.010056,-0.002251,-0.009483,-0.00915,0.003451,-0.004097,-0.000958
Akbari2026:I44895.TW,0.129758,0.121864,0.078064,0.062339,0.037853,0.017291,0.008695,0.01223,-0.00225,-0.028976,-0.00341,-0.01124,0.016204,0.032892,-0.015879,-0.003845,0.01343,-0.003167,-0.006411,0.005753,0.000624,-0.004451,0.008011,-0.010724,-0.007664
Akbari2026:I44899.TW,0.132035,0.114755,0.075424,0.08398,0.039392,0.031236,0.00799,0.012692,-0.00409,-0.031162,-0.012666,-0.011989,0.021407,0.023671,-0.020901,0.008884,0.024512,-0.000507,-0.004651,0.008879,-0.005366,-0.003091,0.010353,-0.000723,-0.006466
Akbari2026:I44902.TW,0.135449,0.11577,0.073161,0.06137,0.033237,0.034304,0.005875,0.015922,-0.005727,-0.030616,-0.002761,-0.01079,0.023786,0.02491,-0.016965,-0.002784,0.001434,-0.004814,-0.002891,-0.007003,-0.005116,-0.007048,0.005669,-0.011086,-0.001197
Akbari2026:I44903.TW,0.132035,0.120848,0.079572,0.077843,0.041546,0.025937,0.01034,0.012923,-0.002454,-0.031709,0.005196,-0.014237,0.025421,0.030827,-0.017372,-0.007558,-0.008605,-0.002534,0.001131,-0.003502,0.000125,-0.00643,0.009613,-0.006025,-0.008742
Akbari2026:I44904.TW,0.136588,0.125926,0.085984,0.079135,0.046162,0.033188,0.011516,0.015461,-0.008385,-0.037176,-0.00406,-0.012589,0.022596,0.021194,-0.017372,0.019225,0.024251,-0.00152,0.002891,0.004002,0.001123,-0.001978,0.005793,-0.005422,-0.003113
Akbari2026:I44905.TW,0.12862,0.127957,0.084475,0.076551,0.041238,0.031515,0.011281,0.016615,-0.003886,-0.028793,-0.003573,-0.011839,0.02661,0.040599,-0.017101,-0.009414,-0.00352,0.003041,-0.002011,-0.002751,-0.002246,-0.0115,0.011832,-0.011568,-0.008143
Akbari2026:I44906.TW,0.134311,0.123895,0.078818,0.076551,0.040315,0.029841,0.008695,0.016153,0.002863,-0.028976,-0.001137,-0.007793,0.021704,0.033442,-0.015879,-0.003315,-0.004955,-0.005574,0.000377,0.005878,0.001622,-0.004822,0.000863,-0.013616,-0.00946
Akbari2026:I44907.TW,0.126344,0.118817,0.085984,0.069445,0.045855,0.029562,0.01081,0.015461,-0.004909,-0.037176,0.001949,-0.016186,0.024083,0.03592,-0.017101,0.001591,0.004824,-0.003927,0.003017,0.00025,-0.006364,-0.01014,0.010846,-0.010363,0.002634
Akbari2026:I44908.TW,0.129758,0.127957,0.072784,0.070414,0.041238,0.026495,0.00799,0.015692,0.000614,-0.030798,0.002111,-0.011839,0.024678,0.037296,-0.015879,-0.015646,-0.013821,0.00228,0.001006,0.004127,-0.011105,-0.008532,0.008997,-0.007953,0.003353
Akbari2026:I44909.TW,0.132035,0.12491,0.07995,0.078166,0.043393,0.027889,0.00752,0.014538,-0.005727,-0.030433,0.00065,-0.014087,0.022894,0.035644,-0.011943,0.002652,0.010952,-0.000887,0.000503,0.012631,0.002246,-0.001113,0.011585,-0.01446,-0.00455

Akbari2026:I45263_preQC.TW,0.134311,0.131003,0.090132,0.075905,0.048317,0.029562,0.01034,0.010615,0.003886,-0.027153,-0.005684,-0.011989,0.025272,0.032204,-0.010722,0.006364,0.013169,0.003167,0.004399,0.008504,-0.003369,-0.00643,0.012202,-0.012652,0.002275
Akbari2026:I45265.TW,0.132035,0.122879,0.07995,0.081073,0.041546,0.03765,0.004935,0.011307,-0.002659,-0.036083,-0.002436,-0.012889,0.027056,0.037846,-0.02158,0.006762,0.009518,-0.003547,0.012193,0.001126,-0.006863,-0.014962,0.005546,-0.00723,0.007305
Akbari2026:I45266_preQC.TW,0.129758,0.121864,0.078064,0.07752,0.044931,0.030399,0.011045,0.011769,-0.001636,-0.034989,-0.004872,-0.005995,0.025421,0.025185,-0.022665,0.014717,0.026207,-0.00266,0.000251,0.001376,-0.010981,-0.013107,0.00493,-0.000964,0.001796
Akbari2026:I45268.TW,0.133173,0.127957,0.071653,0.078489,0.033545,0.027052,0.00517,0.017307,-0.006545,-0.031527,-0.001786,-0.011989,0.019029,0.023946,-0.020901,0.011933,0.025164,-0.004561,-0.007542,0.006253,-0.009234,-0.016075,0.004314,-0.00482,-0.007544
Akbari2026:I45269.TW,0.137726,0.121864,0.085606,0.08075,0.042162,0.027052,0.007285,0.01223,0,-0.032802,0.004222,-0.004946,0.024975,0.027112,-0.012215,0.003845,0.008345,-0.006461,0.003142,0.001501,0.002371,-0.004946,0.007518,-0.009037,-0.004311
Akbari2026:I45270.TW,0.122929,0.12491,0.082212,0.073967,0.04924,0.030957,0.012691,0.016845,0.003272,-0.02606,0.003085,-0.014087,0.029583,0.023258,-0.020358,0.010872,0.024773,0.002027,0.000251,0.008254,-0.004243,-0.011871,0.021938,-0.007471,-0.009221
Akbari2026:I45271.TW,0.134311,0.123895,0.088246,0.073644,0.042777,0.029005,0.016921,0.015922,-0.003477,-0.03262,-0.002436,-0.01109,0.018137,0.034543,-0.012486,-0.008353,-0.011083,-0.005701,0.008799,0.008004,-0.003743,-0.000742,0.006286,-0.008194,-0.005748

Славяне или миксы
Akbari2026:I42613.TW,0.125205,0.129988,0.064865,0.043282,0.037545,0.018128,0.009165,0.001615,0.000409,-0.021139,-0.004547,-0.011839,0.015312,0.020919,-0.012893,-0.001989,0.002347,-0.00228,0.002514,-0.003252,-0.009608,-0.002102,0.000863,-0.00964,0.006586
Akbari2026:I42614.TW,0.133173,0.125926,0.066373,0.052972,0.040007,0.021196,0.012691,0.012461,0,-0.013121,-0.006171,-0.008842,0.016204,0.021056,-0.015336,-0.009944,0.009388,-0.000253,-0.002011,0.002126,-0.005615,-0.00136,0.012325,0.001807,-0.005149
Akbari2026:I42615.TW,0.134311,0.131003,0.067127,0.055879,0.035699,0.023985,0.008695,0.013384,-0.003272,-0.016037,-0.007145,-0.007343,0.016501,0.024084,-0.01045,0.007027,0.014864,0.001394,0.002388,-0.006878,-0.006863,-0.00371,0.009737,-0.010242,-0.006347

Akbari2026:I44894.TW,0.130897,0.120848,0.071653,0.065246,0.03416,0.023148,0.00658,0.009692,0.0045,-0.019499,-0.00065,-0.007643,0.019623,0.024222,-0.015065,0.000398,0.006519,-0.002027,0.000377,-0.002251,-0.00549,-0.002968,0.001232,-0.002289,-0.007903
Akbari2026:I44897.TW,0.125205,0.117801,0.072784,0.052003,0.035083,0.023706,0.014336,0.014769,0.003886,-0.020046,-0.006171,-0.008093,0.017839,0.011836,-0.015065,0.004243,0.009518,0.000127,-0.001131,0.002251,-0.00574,0,0.000986,-0.005904,-0.001197
Akbari2026:I44898.TW,0.129758,0.12491,0.067505,0.054264,0.040623,0.028726,0.011281,0.012923,-0.004295,-0.01877,-0.003735,-0.003147,0.008028,0.021744,-0.017372,0.01074,0.022687,0.003674,0.009804,0.006378,-0.008859,-0.008408,0.00037,-0.006386,-0.001557
Akbari2026:I44900.TW,0.132035,0.139128,0.078441,0.073644,0.04647,0.029841,0.001175,0.007846,0.004295,-0.023873,-0.005684,-0.008842,0.015609,0.028075,-0.016694,-0.007558,0.00352,-0.003801,-0.000377,0.001,-0.010482,-0.009027,0.00456,-0.002651,0.002874

Akbari2026:I45264_preQC.TW,0.125205,0.123895,0.055437,0.049419,0.034776,0.016455,0.00705,0.008769,0.001023,-0.018224,-0.000325,-0.006145,0.018137,0.01968,-0.01045,0.008088,0.008475,-0.003421,0.001257,-0.001126,-0.003494,-0.008408,-0.00037,-0.005181,-0.003353
Akbari2026:I45267.TW,0.135449,0.129988,0.073161,0.06137,0.03693,0.030399,0.010105,0.011076,0.003068,-0.021868,-0.002598,-0.002847,0.017691,0.02546,-0.011536,0.000265,0.00339,0.00228,0.007416,0.01088,-0.003244,-0.00507,0.010106,-0.010604,-0.00012

"Супербалт"
Akbari2026:I44901.TW,0.129758,0.122879,0.093526,0.114989,0.045855,0.042949,0.014571,0.022153,-0.006954,-0.055035,-0.005196,-0.017684,0.029732,0.041012,-0.014386,0.009016,0.004303,-0.000633,-0.001257,0.006378,0.000374,-0.005935,0.006655,-0.017713,-0.004311

Игреки туда не вписывал, но по собственной таблице так:

Код: [Выделить]

I42585 R1a-Z92 YP575
I42586 R1a-Z92 YP1699
I42587 R1a-Z92 YP575

I42604 R1a-Z92 YP575
I42605 R1a-Z92 YP575
I42606 NoY
I42607 R1a-CTS1211 YP1410
I42608 R1a-CTS1211 YP1410
I42609 R1a-CTS1211 FT135115
I42610 R1a-CTS1211 FT135115
I42611 NoY
I42612 R1a-L1029
I42616 R1a-Z92 YP1699
I42617 R1b-FT287755
I42618 R1a-Z92 VK01

I42613 NoY
I42614 NoY
I42615 I2a-Y3118
I44894 I2a-CTS10228 S20602
I44897 I2a-CTS10228 Y3106
I44898 NoY
I44900 NoY
I45267 I2a-CTS10228 Y3118

I44891 NoY
I44892 NoY
I44893 N-L1025
I44895 NoY
I44899 NoY
I44902 NoY
I44903 NoY
I44904 R1a-Z92 YP5617
I44905 NoY
I44906 R1a-Z92 YP1699
I44907 R1a-Z92 BY15227
I44908 NoY
I44909 R1a-Z92 BY27248

I45263 NoY
I45265 R1a-Z92 YP575
I45266 R1a-Z92 YP569
I45269 R1a-Z92 YP5617
I45270 NoY
I45271 R1a-CTS1211 BY180648

I45268 NoY

I45264 G2a-Z6414
И некоторые там родственники, но эту информацию тоже сюда не вписывал. Для G25 оно не особо принципиально.

Извиняюсь за вопрос. А что за работа имеется в виду? У меня в yfull прямой общий предок с I42615 I2a-Y3118 в районе 300 г. н.э.

[PL]

А где выкладывали именно IBD-кластеризацию? Пока я видел только группирование образцов  Акбари с помощью G25. И в этом случае, например, средневековый образец может попасть в тшинецкий кластер просто по своим дистанциям.

нет кластеризации, все вручную, просто сначала ищешь по аутосомам или Y кандидатов
https://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,15378.msg629248.html#msg629248
и теперь проверяешь по IBD , или теперь уже по IBD смотришь "родственников" образца.

вот, образец и сразу видно к какому кластеру он относиться, часто встречается Kivutkalns, поэтому кластер можно назвать Baltic_BA_Kivutkalns
I19066.AG   R-M417   H5a1a 
   s19_X15_2.SG   44.78   Estonia_BA
   Kivutkalns207.AG   37.49   Latvia_BA
   S47967_Pickle.28_SQ.TW   22.03   unknown
   I24683.AG   16.75   (балты, курши?)
   RISE507.508.merge.SG   16.46   Russia_Afanasievo
   I4976.AG   15.96   (Trzciniec)
   I40290.TW   15.60   unknown
   Kivutkalns19.AG   15.14   Latvia_BA
   Kivutkalns215.AG   15.14   Latvia_BA

это пока третий Baltic_BA найденный в Акбари2026:
I19066.AG    R-M417   H5a1a
I19068.AG.TW   R-Z280/CTS1211/Y35/Y33/YP968      I4a
I44901.TW      R-Z280/CTS1211/Y35/Y33   H1e1b1b

первый сдвинут к Латвии(Kivutkalns+I24683 балты, курши?), второй к Литве(часто Lithuania_Marvele+Estonia_IA), то третий, как вариант к милоградской культуре(?) с базальной R-Y33 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y33/ и более молодой мтДНК, https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H1e1b1*/

А известно, что это за образец?

I40290.TW   15.60   unknown 

Он появился у китайцев на нашей ветке N-Z1934 >> N-Y19110 >> N-FT52835 , в YFyll там образец из Москвы.

https://www.theytree.com/?snp=N-Z1934

[Дачник44]

I40290.TW
из неопубликованных
Y-линия - условно вождя КРОМ Ундрих-90
датировка примерно минус 1450 лет (примерно 6 век н.э.), восток
с условно мерянским аутосомным профилем
Distance to:   Akbari2026:I40290.TW
0.03209721   NEEuro_IA-MA_Russia_Shekshovo9_EarlyMedieval(n=2)
0.03291969   NEEuro_IA-MA_Russia_Gorokhovets_Medieval(n=1)
0.04109719   Scandinavia_Viking_oFinnoUgric_Sweden_Viking(n=1)
0.04117725   NEEuro_IA-MA_Russia_Shekshovo9_HighMedieval(n=1)
0.04345555   NEEuro_IA-MA_Finnish_Finland_Tampere_Medieval(n=7)

[PL]

Спасибо.
Интересно, очень интересно. А g25 нет еще по нему?

[Дачник44]

Akbari2026:I40290.TW,0.120652,0.06804,0.084475,0.085595,0.010156,0.025379,0.011045,0.007154,-0.002659,-0.040456,0.005846,-0.006744,0.020961,0.009358,-0.008415,0.003447,0.000652,0.001774,0.006913,-0.005628,-0.007237,0.002349,0.008874,-0.006507,0.001557

[PL]

Спасибо!

0.06826064  далековато........

[Demer]

Нашел еще один образец I39646.TW  325 н.э., регион восток. Он не связан ни с балтами Литвы, ни со скифоидами(UKR), с ранними славянами связи нет, кроме слабой 8.83 с I29580.TW 218 н.э. SW   
I39646.TW аутосомно похож на ранних славян, но смещен несколько "восточнее".

При этом у I39646 связи(первое место) с I43284.TW unknown(-2150 до н.э. SE) предположительно  Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros.
У I43284.TW первое место образец с Битвы Tollense WEZ15
WEZ15.SG   Germany_Tollense_BA
   I43284.TW   33.41   unknown

Соответственно I39646 может быть дальним потомком южных Лужитских групп. Его паттерн из славян похож,  на PCA0103(200 н.э.). с преобладанием Trzciniec над Baltic_BA, наличием связи с I24683 и UKR167. Но у PCA0103 нет сильных связей с Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros и он смещен к балтам.
Поэтому пока предполагаемый предковый источник, для PCA0103, а может и для Зарубинецкой культуры, это самая удаленная восточно-Мазовецкая-Подлясная группа Лужитской культуры и\или некоторые западно-украинские лесо-степные группы.
Поскольку до сих пор не найдены более древние аутлаеры, то предковая группа для славян была малочисленна. Из-за роста численности, сначала Зарубинецкой культуры, потом Киевской и Пражской культур, IBD сигнал предковых для славян групп ослабевает.

I39646.TW unknown  325 н.э.   E
    Kivutkalns215.AG    7.03  Latvia_BA
    s19_X08_1.SG        7.18  Estonia_BA
    s19_V11_1.SG        7.48  Estonia_IA

    I24683.AG               10.59  unknown  Trzciniec/Baltic_BA/Balts
    poz694.SG              7.79  Poland_Trzciniec_MBA
    poz712.SG              7.76  Poland_Trzciniec_MBA
    poz660.SG              7.63  Poland_Trzciniec_MBA
    poz674.SG              7.54  Poland_Trzciniec_MBA
    poz659.SG              7.27  Poland_Trzciniec_MBA
    poz693.SG              7.18  Poland_Trzciniec_MBA
    UKR167.SG            7.17  Ukraine_Volyn_Lusatian_EIA

    I43284.TW              26.35  unknown  -2150 до н.э.  SE Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros?
    I23207.AG              8.27   Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros
    MOK19A.SG           7.57  Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros
    MOK27.SG             7.38   Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros

    I29580.TW              8.83   unknown  early_Slavs  218 н.э. SW   

PCA0103.SG    200 н.э.   Poland_Maslomecz_Wielbark_IA
    s19_V16_1.SG       8.17   Estonia_BA

    poz794.SG             15.99  Poland_Strzyzow_EBA
    poz665.SG              7.93   Poland_Trzciniec_MBA
    poz833.SG              7.68   Poland_Trzciniec_EBA
    poz709.SG              7.59   Poland_Trzciniec_MBA
    poz694.SG              7.13   Poland_Trzciniec_MBA
    UKR167.SG            7.42   Ukraine_Volyn_Lusatian_EIA
    I24683.AG               7.54   unknown  Trzciniec/Baltic_BA/Balts

    MOK22.SG              9.13   Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros

Код: [Выделить]

325EAkbari2026:I39646.TW,0.127482,0.107646,0.090132,0.092701,0.031698,0.040439,0.013161,0.017768,-0.013703,-0.043737,-0.000325,-0.018583,0.025718,0.038672,-0.014794,-0.006629,-0.005607,-0.002914,0.002388,0.001251,-0.005366,-0.003339,0.008751,-0.019039,0.005987

[Andvari]

С регистрацией на Молгене, говорят, проблемы. Люди не могут нормально зарегистрироваться. Надеюсь, это временно?

Подписчик просил разместить здесь его мысли по поводу пары образцов, возможно, кого-то заинтересует и кто-то захочет обсудить.

"Серия I11662, I11664, I11685, идущих один за другим из региона C 4000-3650 ybp представляет интерес с точки зрения восстановления истории балтийского бронзового века, хотя и не добавляет определённости в споре о южном и северном источнике дрифта. Также отмечается, что балтийская бронза с регулярностью обнаруживает связи с культурами Паннонии по ibd, а в g25 выявляется треть балтийского бронзового века у унетицких образцов (kne004, SLB022, KNE006, у других меньше)Также польские исследователи выпустили анонс, где поведали о сильных ibd связях тшинецкой культуры и фюзешабонь. Зная эти факты, любителям палеогенетики предлагается ответить на вопрос: мог ли балтийский сдвиг у этих образцов быть связан с процессами формирования балтийской бронзы и насколько значительно. Прошу также Y знатоков оценить правильность аттестации у SLB022 CTS1211 в статье
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-67906-y

 ну и интересным выглядит образец I12794 с очень ранней датой из региона E. Возможно, он шнуровик (фатьяновец?) с примесью бб дрейфа".

[Камарицкий]

Унитицкая культура - 2300–1600 BC
Образцы "балтийской бронзы" - 600 - 900 BC
Образцы "балтийской бронзы" на 700 - 1000 лет МОЛОЖЕ

В образцах Унетицкой культуры НЕ может быть любой части "балтийской бронзы" - так как когда Унетицкая перестала существовать - "балтийской бронзы" еще не было

Из данных археологии известно - что образцы "балтийской бронзы"  это недавние пришельцы от времени их датирования в Прибалтике
Так время начала существования городища Кивулкалнс по данным радиоуглеродного датирования около 650 года до н. э.
Как уже писалось раньше - на основании мнения археологов или типа захоронения - корни этой бронзы лежит в ЦЕ
Что сейчас и проявляется - и слава Богу

Собственно это обстоятельство и предполагает что истоки тн "балтийской" бронзы - которая не балтийская а привнесенная извне - лежит за пределами Балтийского региона
и наличие этого компонента у славян может быть объяснено наличием данного компонента  - получением его у некой не открытой популяции вне балтийского региона - собственно как и у самих "балтийцев"

[Georg]

Унитицкая культура - 2300–1600 BC
Образцы "балтийской бронзы" - 600 - 900 BC
Образцы "балтийской бронзы" на 700 - 1000 лет МОЛОЖЕ

В образцах Унетицкой культуры НЕ может быть любой части "балтийской бронзы" - так как когда Унетицкая перестала существовать - "балтийской бронзы" еще не было

Из данных археологии известно - что образцы "балтийской бронзы"  это недавние пришельцы от времени их датирования в Прибалтике
Так время начала существования городища Кивулкалнс по данным радиоуглеродного датирования около 650 года до н. э.
Как уже писалось раньше - на основании мнения археологов или типа захоронения - корни этой бронзы лежит в ЦЕ
Что сейчас и проявляется - и слава Богу

Собственно это обстоятельство и предполагает что истоки тн "балтийской" бронзы - которая не балтийская а привнесенная извне - лежит за пределами Балтийского региона
и наличие этого компонента у славян может быть объяснено наличием данного компонента  - получением его у некой не открытой популяции вне балтийского региона - собственно как и у самих "балтийцев"

Да, очевидно, что широко распространенный балтийско-восточноевропейский постшнуровой компонент смешался в прикарпатско-паннонской зоне с логкасом, откуда рассеян как на северо-запад (померанская), так и на северо-восток (балтийская бронза). А потом произошло воссоединение при бегстве постпомеранцев-зарубинцев на восток