Эксперименты Srkz с аутосомами

[Asmat headhunter]

Perhaps Oracle is trying to create a generic ancestral Volgaic Finn here?

Finno-Permic, maybe.

[Аббат Бузони]

Using the updated Oracle, Unzha and Rostov sample sets are (slightly) connected to East Finn-related ancestry, but mostly to Komi. I wonder, what does Komi-component represents?
Rostov
Balto-Slavic 65% + Komi 25% + Saami 5% + Estonian 5% @ 6,34
Balto-Slavic 70% + Komi 25% + Saami 5% @ 6,81
Balto-Slavic 60% + Komi 25% + Estonian 15% @ 6,84
Balto-Slavic 70% + Finnish-East 5% + Komi 25% @ 7,49
Balto-Slavic 65% + Finnish-East 5% + Komi 25% + Mari 5% @ 7,73]

Perhaps Oracle is trying to create a generic ancestral Volgaic Finn here? Komi are a rather good candidate, Saami is too biased towards Paleo Scandinavians, Estonians towards Balts, Finnish East towards Balts, Proto Germans and Paleo Scandinavians, Mari towards Volgaic Turkic speakers? Komi seems to be the best proxy, as said?

Volgaic Finn?

Finno-Permic, maybe. (с)

[Huckleberry Finn]

Volgaic Finn?

Finno-Permic, maybe. (с)

Indeed, in order to be precise. Finno-Permic i.e. in the sense that it is ancestral to Baltic, Volgaic and Permic Finns, but also to Saami.

[Аббат Бузони]

Volgaic Finn?

Finno-Permic, maybe. (с)

Indeed, in order to be precise. Finno-Permic i.e. in the sense that it is ancestral to Baltic, Volgaic and Permic Finns, but also to Saami.

Srkz: Мещерцев и эрзян уже добавил в таблицу, там не выше, чем у русских Смоленска и Твери (видимо, базовый восточноевропейский уровень, условно принятый мной за ноль)

[митохондрия]

Посоветуйте, пожалуйста, наиболее точный oracle4 для разделения финноугорско- вологодско- вепсных корней.

[Srkz]

Perhaps Oracle is trying to create a generic ancestral Volgaic Finn here? Komi are a rather good candidate, Saami is too biased towards Paleo Scandinavians, Estonians towards Balts, Finnish East towards Balts, Proto Germans and Paleo Scandinavians, Mari towards Volgaic Turkic speakers? Komi seems to be the best proxy, as said?

I think Maris, Udmurts and Mansi are best modern proxies for the eastern intruders who brought most branches of the N1c Y-Hg to the Eastern Europe, and "Komi-component" probably represents some type of the previous substrate. While travelling to the west, eastern type autosomes of the N1c-carriers were mostly replaced by local, European autosomes. These N1c should be Uralic speakers, but it's hard to say, what kind of language used the "Komi-component" people before?
PS it is Volgaic Turks (Chuvashes and Kazan Tatars) who are shifted towards Mari.

[Huckleberry Finn]

I think Maris, Udmurts and Mansi are best modern proxies for the eastern intruders who brought most branches of the N1c Y-Hg to the Eastern Europe, and "Komi-component" probably represents some type of the previous substrate. While travelling to the west, eastern type autosomes of the N1c-carriers were mostly replaced by local, European autosomes. These N1c should be Uralic speakers, but it's hard to say, what kind of language used the "Komi-component" people before?
PS it is Volgaic Turks (Chuvashes and Kazan Tatars) who are shifted towards Mari.

Well, you're of course the specialist here. Mari language apparently has rather many Volgaic Turkic loan words, it has probably misleaded me to think that they have some Volgaic Turkic genetic heritage too. Mari, Udmurt and Mansi might also indeed be good alternatives as the Proto Uralic genetic proxy, including Proto Hungarians, however the situation after the break up of Proto Uralic, during the Finno Permic stage, may already have been somewhat different?

Finnish linguists such as Jaakko Häkkinen have been discussing a Paleo European language of the Volga area, which preceded Uralic in that area, but the remains of that language are apparently rather  limited.

[Аббат Бузони]

It should be noted that the Mari language is artificially introduced into the Volgaic "Finn" group. There is only a geographical logic.

[Huckleberry Finn]

It should be noted that the Mari language is artificially introduced into the Volgaic "Finn" group. There is only a geographical logic.

Yes and Jaakko Häkkinen has for instance included Mari into Permic branch, because of phonetic reasons.

[Аббат Бузони]

It should be noted that the Mari language is artificially introduced into the Volgaic "Finn" group. There is only a geographical logic.

Yes and Jaakko Häkkinen has for instance included Mari into Permic branch, because of phonetic reasons.

Napolskih:

"The question of the legitimacy of allocation of proto-language of the Volga debated for a long time, and ultimately skeptical view, based on the very small number of Mari-Erzya/Moksha separate parallels, apparently defeated force of historical inertia. To be consistent, we would probably talk about the Baltic-Finnish-Sami-Erzya-Moksha community and separated from her Mari as an independent branch of the Finno-Permian: Erzya and Moksha languages ​​exhibit definitely larger number of separate lexical similarities and commonalities in morphology with Baltic-Finnish than with Mari, but for such a radical redrawing of the Finno-Ugric family tree needs time and special work."

[Huckleberry Finn]

Srkz, pls check Fig 4, Admixture at K=3. It sort of reminds me of your great IBD-map?

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0058552.PDF

[Srkz]

however the situation after the break up of Proto Uralic, during the Finno Permic stage, may already have been somewhat different?

It's too difficult for me to connect genetic components to different stages of Uralic languages evolution, i'm not a linguist. So i'm not sure, it is possible the process of Uralisation was very complex and complicated.

Srkz, pls check Fig 4, Admixture at K=3. It sort of reminds me of your great IBD-map?

Yes i remember this article. In fact, some of the samples i'm using (Izhemsky Komi, Mezen Russians etc) are from another article of this authors. Do you mean K=4, where the "Komi" (red) component appears? I think the North-East European Pole of genetics diversity from this work is a combination of my IBD "Komi-related" component, Volga/Ural/Western Siberian component (as you can see, no populations from Volga-Ural or Siberia were used), and heavy genetic drift of the Izhemsky Komi. This Volga-Ural-Siberia component is a compination of ANE-rich paleoSiberian hunter-gatherers and East Asians.

PS i plan to read the Rjabinin's article, a bit busy now.

[Srkz]

Посоветуйте, пожалуйста, наиболее точный oracle4 для разделения финноугорско- вологодско- вепсных корней.

Четырехсторонние оракулы бесполезны для целей глубокого разделения корней - можно нормально разделить на 1/2+1/2 или 3/4+1/4. В случаях, когда смешивавшиеся стороны различались очень заметно - 1/2+1/4+1/4. К сожалению, не удалось полностью добиться того, чего хотелось при их придумывании.

[Srkz]

Srkz: Мещерцев и эрзян уже добавил в таблицу, там не выше, чем у русских Смоленска и Твери (видимо, базовый восточноевропейский уровень, условно принятый мной за ноль)

У мокшан тоже не нашлось коми-компонента (ожидаемо после первых двух).

[Huckleberry Finn]

Yes i remember this article. In fact, some of the samples i'm using (Izhemsky Komi, Mezen Russians etc) are from another article of this authors. Do you mean K=4, where the "Komi" (red) component appears? I think the North-East European Pole of genetics diversity from this work is a combination of my IBD "Komi-related" component, Volga/Ural/Western Siberian component (as you can see, no populations from Volga-Ural or Siberia were used), and heavy genetic drift of the Izhemsky Komi. This Volga-Ural-Siberia component is a compination of ANE-rich paleoSiberian hunter-gatherers and East Asians.

PS i plan to read the Rjabinin's article, a bit busy now.

No, I'm referring to Fig 3, combining Komi with Finnics. Fig 4 I don't actually understand because of Poles etc. having some of that Komi red too. Fig 5 & 6 are however more obvious, also related to Komi specific features.

The article Srkz is referring to is "Zoomorfnie ukrashenia drevnei Rusi X-XIV vv" of Rjabinin, a very interesting piece of research.