АвторТема: L1248+  (Прочитано 26376 раз)

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Оффлайн grimsvotnАвтор темы

  • МЖМ Y-DNA: I1-L1248+ Y20842+ (South Scandinavia, Germanic tribes AD) RU-SE
  • Сообщений: 5342
  • Страна: england
  • Рейтинг +1162/-1
  • Neolithic Era
    • I1-L1248 haplogroup project
  • Y-ДНК: R-FGC11555 (Eastern, BRY-TAM, RU), Prague-Korchak Culture / Western Ukraine (?)
  • мтДНК: T1a-T152C! RU-UA-IRL (Anatolian neolithic farmers)
L1248+
« : 16 Июнь 2014, 10:55:07 »
Тема о субскладе I1-L1248+

Цитировать
Dear All
I am pleased to announce that we now have a new haplogroup project at FTDNA for I-L1248 and its downstream SNPs ( L803/L1247, L802, Y3238, Y3456, Y6747).
L1248 has been found in men from Russia, Germany and Britain. Unfortunately, this SNP was discovered too late for the Geno 2 test and the position of L1248 (5274925) is not getting consistent coverage with the Big Y test. Of the 15 men from I-L803 who did Big Y, only about 5 or 6 had reads at 5274925.
There is a large Genetic Distance when comparing the haplotypes of the Russian, German and British L1248+ men and a ‘great unknown’ between L1248 and L803. If we are ever to understand more about L1248 then we need to be able to gather all available L1248+ haplotypes together in one place.
If you are L1248+ then please consider adding the I-L1248 Project to your list of project memberships at FTDNA.
Directions for joining:
• Log into your account at FTDNA
• Hover your cursor over ‘My Projects’ at the top left of the page and then click ‘Join’.
• Scroll down to the section titled ‘Y-DNA HAPLOGROUP PROJECTS’
• Click box ‘I-18’ – note the number 18 may increase as new ‘I’ haplogroup projects are established.
• Scroll down and click ‘I-L1248’
• On the next page click the yellow ‘Join’ button.
Kind regards
Julie Frame Falk (Admin
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I-L1248/default.aspx
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I-L1248/default.aspx?section=yresults
« Последнее редактирование: 29 Январь 2016, 00:15:19 от Аббат Бузони »

Оффлайн grimsvotnАвтор темы

  • МЖМ Y-DNA: I1-L1248+ Y20842+ (South Scandinavia, Germanic tribes AD) RU-SE
  • Сообщений: 5342
  • Страна: england
  • Рейтинг +1162/-1
  • Neolithic Era
    • I1-L1248 haplogroup project
  • Y-ДНК: R-FGC11555 (Eastern, BRY-TAM, RU), Prague-Korchak Culture / Western Ukraine (?)
  • мтДНК: T1a-T152C! RU-UA-IRL (Anatolian neolithic farmers)
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #1 : 16 Июнь 2014, 10:57:02 »
Письмо от администратора семейного ДНК-проекта клана Frame Джулии:

I am also curious about the L1248 founder that we share.  One of my project members did some research recently on the SNP CTS7362 which is the SNP upstream of L1248. He believes it probably originated in Sweden.  As you can see on the attached chart, we share CTS7362 as a common ancestor with  Z73/L1301 and L1302 which is dominated by Scandinavians, and also L573 (Germany).  On Ken Nordtvedt's Z60+ chart (attached), he estimates the interclade node age where CTS7362 and Z140 branched apart as about 3,500 ybp.
 
In my post that you found on the Internet, I was exploring how my British L803 group might share a common ancestry, through L1248, with some Russian gentlemen. Trust me, I am not an expert and can only speculate on this!  Here are my humble thoughts:
 
I suspect the dispersal of L1248 into Russia, especially with some L1248s having a connection to Sevsk, must have had something to do with Swedish Viking bands, hence my snippets:
 
‘Sevsk
(Russian: Севск) is a town and the administrative center of Sevsky District
of Bryansk Oblast, Russia, located on the Sev River (DNIEPER's basin), 142
kilometers (88 mi) from Bryansk…’

 
‘The Vikings came to Russia through the trade routes from Sweden down the Russian rivers, particularly the Don and the DNIEPER which led south to the markets of Bulgar, Khazaria, Byzantium and the Caliphate. Some reached as far East as the Caspian Sea and as far south as Baghdad…’ and another: 'from the 8th and 11th centuries, Swedish Vikings travelled east and south, going to Finland, the Baltic countries, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, the Black Sea and further as far as Baghdad. They founded the Kievan Rus, the medieval precursor of the Russian state, and what would become Belarus and Ukraine.'...but you already know that!  Smile
 
Obviously, the common L1248 ancestor that we share lived long before the Viking era.  Ken Nordtvedt estimates the time that the line leading to Umnov, Mozhaev and no doubt your Pozdnyakov ancestor, branched away from the line leading to my L803 ancestor, to be about 2,600 ybp, so the SNP L1248 is quite old.  This seems evident from the large number of STR haplotype differences between my L803s (founder possibly lived about 1300 ybp) and the Russian L1248 gentlemen, and also my L803s and the Scandinavians on the L1301/L73 and L1302 branches.  Ken has 10 or more additional British L1248+ men in his database from Chromo2 tests, but the samples are anonymous, so not clues from surnames/origins. Such a pity!
 
My own research into the Continental origins of my L803 group indicates that they very likely came to Britain from what is now known as French Flanders.  I think they were Walloons (French-speaking Flemish people).  Both in England and Scotland, there is overwhelming evidence that families surnamed Frame, Freame etc. (found on record as a hereditary surname from the early 14th century), and the Fremault families, Walloons who arrived later (16th- 17th century) were predominantly tied to the textile trade as weavers, clothiers, merchants etc. as well as other artisans. As we know, the 'Danish' Vikings raided most of Flanders in the 9th century.  Where my L803's descended from these men?  I don't really know for certain but it seems possible, although our surname is supposed to be 'Frankish'.  However, if we consider back to the time of the ancestors of the Danish Vikings, and also the founder of L1248, these nomadic Norse tribes would have intermingled in different territories without ever thinking of themselves as being Swedish, Danish at that time.  Much later though, I wonder if descendants of L1248, could have become either ‘Swedish’ or ‘Danish’ Vikings.

Оффлайн grimsvotnАвтор темы

  • МЖМ Y-DNA: I1-L1248+ Y20842+ (South Scandinavia, Germanic tribes AD) RU-SE
  • Сообщений: 5342
  • Страна: england
  • Рейтинг +1162/-1
  • Neolithic Era
    • I1-L1248 haplogroup project
  • Y-ДНК: R-FGC11555 (Eastern, BRY-TAM, RU), Prague-Korchak Culture / Western Ukraine (?)
  • мтДНК: T1a-T152C! RU-UA-IRL (Anatolian neolithic farmers)
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #2 : 16 Июнь 2014, 10:59:52 »

Оффлайн grimsvotnАвтор темы

  • МЖМ Y-DNA: I1-L1248+ Y20842+ (South Scandinavia, Germanic tribes AD) RU-SE
  • Сообщений: 5342
  • Страна: england
  • Рейтинг +1162/-1
  • Neolithic Era
    • I1-L1248 haplogroup project
  • Y-ДНК: R-FGC11555 (Eastern, BRY-TAM, RU), Prague-Korchak Culture / Western Ukraine (?)
  • мтДНК: T1a-T152C! RU-UA-IRL (Anatolian neolithic farmers)
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #3 : 16 Июнь 2014, 11:04:38 »
По мнению Джулии для российских L1248 (напомню, что пока в России эта ветвь представлена всего лишь тремя семплами, два из которых родственны между собой в обозримом историческом прошлом) могут быть актуальными снипы Y3245 и Y3246.

« Последнее редактирование: 16 Июнь 2014, 11:34:59 от grimsvotn »

Оффлайн grimsvotnАвтор темы

  • МЖМ Y-DNA: I1-L1248+ Y20842+ (South Scandinavia, Germanic tribes AD) RU-SE
  • Сообщений: 5342
  • Страна: england
  • Рейтинг +1162/-1
  • Neolithic Era
    • I1-L1248 haplogroup project
  • Y-ДНК: R-FGC11555 (Eastern, BRY-TAM, RU), Prague-Korchak Culture / Western Ukraine (?)
  • мтДНК: T1a-T152C! RU-UA-IRL (Anatolian neolithic farmers)
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #4 : 16 Июнь 2014, 11:10:38 »
Российские и англосаксонские L1248:

« Последнее редактирование: 16 Июнь 2014, 11:34:22 от grimsvotn »

Оффлайн zea78

  • SevskGen.ru
  • Сообщений: 1502
  • Страна: ru
  • Рейтинг +723/-3
  • будем искать
  • Y-ДНК: R1a-YP418*
  • мтДНК: U8a1a1a или U8a1a1b
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #5 : 16 Июнь 2014, 14:08:41 »
А этот снип шибко древний?

Оффлайн grimsvotnАвтор темы

  • МЖМ Y-DNA: I1-L1248+ Y20842+ (South Scandinavia, Germanic tribes AD) RU-SE
  • Сообщений: 5342
  • Страна: england
  • Рейтинг +1162/-1
  • Neolithic Era
    • I1-L1248 haplogroup project
  • Y-ДНК: R-FGC11555 (Eastern, BRY-TAM, RU), Prague-Korchak Culture / Western Ukraine (?)
  • мтДНК: T1a-T152C! RU-UA-IRL (Anatolian neolithic farmers)
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #6 : 16 Июнь 2014, 15:59:47 »
Цитата: zea78 link=topic=7011.msg240677#msg240677 date=140291332з1
А этот снип шибко древний?

Пока сложно сказать. Но будем разбираться :)

Оффлайн Робот Вертнера

  • Сообщений: 9159
  • Страна: ru
  • Рейтинг +144/-0
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #7 : 17 Июнь 2014, 13:20:03 »
Новый гаплотип или маркеры; L1248+; 111 маркеров; I-CTS7362; I1; Frame; Unknown Origin; 75654; CTS2514+, CTS2524+, CTS2644+, CTS2738+, CTS3517+, CTS3654+, CTS3843+, CTS4088+, CTS4130+, CTS4295+, CTS4437+, CTS4848+, CTS4982+, CTS5167+, CTS5408+, CTS5513+, CTS5577+, CTS565+, CTS5650+, CTS5705+, CTS571+, CTS5783+, CTS5884+, CTS5891+, CTS5908+, CTS5993+, CTS6140+, CTS6221+, CTS623+, CTS6265+, CTS6395+, CTS641+, CTS6629+, CTS674+, CTS6932+, CTS7267+, CTS7362+, CTS7400+, L803+, L1247+, L1248+, CTS10058+, CTS10140+, CTS10338+, CTS10834+, CTS11036+, CTS11042+, CTS11441+, CTS11468+, CTS11526+, CTS11552+, CTS11775+, CTS11783+, CTS11950+, CTS1393+, CTS2134+, CTS2193+, CTS7659+, CTS7831+, CTS7949+, CTS8333+, CTS8345+, CTS8394+, CTS8420+, CTS8591+, CTS8647+, CTS8665+, CTS8716+, CTS88+, CTS8876+, CTS9240+, CTS9264+, CTS9288+, F719+, L104+, L118+, L121+, L123+, L124+, L125+, L132+, L15+, L157+, L16+, L187+, F1209+, M253+, F3692+, L350+, L403+, L468+, L470+, L498+, L (на расстоянии 8 от I-M253; I1; Frame; Scotland; 161488 310501)

Оффлайн grimsvotnАвтор темы

  • МЖМ Y-DNA: I1-L1248+ Y20842+ (South Scandinavia, Germanic tribes AD) RU-SE
  • Сообщений: 5342
  • Страна: england
  • Рейтинг +1162/-1
  • Neolithic Era
    • I1-L1248 haplogroup project
  • Y-ДНК: R-FGC11555 (Eastern, BRY-TAM, RU), Prague-Korchak Culture / Western Ukraine (?)
  • мтДНК: T1a-T152C! RU-UA-IRL (Anatolian neolithic farmers)
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #8 : 17 Июнь 2014, 13:53:09 »
Представители англосаксонских L1248 из проекта YDNA_I1 (преимущественно Фреймы и Гамильтоны):


Оффлайн Робот Вертнера

  • Сообщений: 9159
  • Страна: ru
  • Рейтинг +144/-0
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #9 : 30 Июнь 2014, 00:03:45 »
Новый гаплотип или маркеры; L1248+; 67 маркеров; I-Z60; I1; Fischer; Germany; PDUDX 73056; M170+, M253+, M258+, M307+, P38+, P19+, P30+, Z58+, Z59+, Z60+, L1248+, L573-, Z139-, Z140-, M161-, Z63-, P37-, P109-, P259-, L22-, L338-, Z73-, M72-, M26-, M21-, M223-, M227- (на расстоянии 12 от I-M253; I1; John Ball, b. abt. 1823 and d. 1907; England; 140669)

Оффлайн grimsvotnАвтор темы

  • МЖМ Y-DNA: I1-L1248+ Y20842+ (South Scandinavia, Germanic tribes AD) RU-SE
  • Сообщений: 5342
  • Страна: england
  • Рейтинг +1162/-1
  • Neolithic Era
    • I1-L1248 haplogroup project
  • Y-ДНК: R-FGC11555 (Eastern, BRY-TAM, RU), Prague-Korchak Culture / Western Ukraine (?)
  • мтДНК: T1a-T152C! RU-UA-IRL (Anatolian neolithic farmers)
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #10 : 09 Август 2014, 17:06:22 »
Известный скандинавский ахеологический комплекс на р. Десна близ Чернигова - Шестовицкий:

http://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%E5%F1%F2%EE%E2%E8%F6%EA%E8%E9_%E0%F0%F5%E5%EE%EB%EE%E3%E8%F7%E5%F1%EA%E8%E9_%EA%EE%EC%EF%EB%E5%EA%F1

Оффлайн zea78

  • SevskGen.ru
  • Сообщений: 1502
  • Страна: ru
  • Рейтинг +723/-3
  • будем искать
  • Y-ДНК: R1a-YP418*
  • мтДНК: U8a1a1a или U8a1a1b
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #11 : 12 Август 2014, 21:44:17 »
А как это связано с L1248+ ?

Оффлайн grimsvotnАвтор темы

  • МЖМ Y-DNA: I1-L1248+ Y20842+ (South Scandinavia, Germanic tribes AD) RU-SE
  • Сообщений: 5342
  • Страна: england
  • Рейтинг +1162/-1
  • Neolithic Era
    • I1-L1248 haplogroup project
  • Y-ДНК: R-FGC11555 (Eastern, BRY-TAM, RU), Prague-Korchak Culture / Western Ukraine (?)
  • мтДНК: T1a-T152C! RU-UA-IRL (Anatolian neolithic farmers)
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #12 : 13 Август 2014, 11:25:21 »
А как это связано с L1248+ ?

Не более чем присутствие скандинавов в регионе - в Подесенье.

Оффлайн grimsvotnАвтор темы

  • МЖМ Y-DNA: I1-L1248+ Y20842+ (South Scandinavia, Germanic tribes AD) RU-SE
  • Сообщений: 5342
  • Страна: england
  • Рейтинг +1162/-1
  • Neolithic Era
    • I1-L1248 haplogroup project
  • Y-ДНК: R-FGC11555 (Eastern, BRY-TAM, RU), Prague-Korchak Culture / Western Ukraine (?)
  • мтДНК: T1a-T152C! RU-UA-IRL (Anatolian neolithic farmers)
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #13 : 21 Август 2014, 20:27:34 »
Участник ДНК-проекта "Российская империя" 229571 Штеренлихт (Shterenliht) поразительно близок к Умнову (3/5 на 67). Но пока не тестировался на снип L1248.

Написал администраторам чтобы связаться с Штеренлихтом.

Случай любопытный, как я понимаю I1 среди ашкенази - большая редкость?

Оффлайн grimsvotnАвтор темы

  • МЖМ Y-DNA: I1-L1248+ Y20842+ (South Scandinavia, Germanic tribes AD) RU-SE
  • Сообщений: 5342
  • Страна: england
  • Рейтинг +1162/-1
  • Neolithic Era
    • I1-L1248 haplogroup project
  • Y-ДНК: R-FGC11555 (Eastern, BRY-TAM, RU), Prague-Korchak Culture / Western Ukraine (?)
  • мтДНК: T1a-T152C! RU-UA-IRL (Anatolian neolithic farmers)
Re: I1-L1248+
« Ответ #14 : 29 Август 2014, 14:50:13 »
В проекте I1_YDNA для подветви Поздняков-Можаев-Фишер рекомендуют следующие снипы:

S14534 S4714 S4715 Y3154 Y3155 Y3240 Y3245

О последнем не так давно писала Джулия Фрейм. Поглядел - пока ФТДНА ни один из них не запустили(((

Досадно.

А вместе с тем по осени может закажу Big-Y для Позднякова, главное чтобы ДНК хватило (с сэмпла делали Y-67 и аутосомы). Второй раз уговорить двоюродного деда на тест уже не представляется возможным. Человеку за 80 лет...

 

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