АвторТема: M458->A11460  (Прочитано 18141 раз)

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M458->A11460
« : 25 Февраль 2012, 08:48:38 »
Lappa, опубликовал на DNA-Forums:
Цитировать
Just like I thought:
Цитировать
Similar situation is with Rytel family (#171827, #182590, #182868)
Z283+, Z280-, L342-
When haplotype don't fit to known M458 clades: N and P Types.
Z284 will be for sure negative for them
but M458 is worth do test - they have some signals of M458 in Y12 and Y111 panels (if we have it + so we will have 3rd line of M458)
(and MEGA4 place Rytel family between N and P M458+ clades!)

Both SNPs ordered so in next month wi will know:
it can be another Z283* or totally new M458*


RYTEL family, don't fit to N or P clusters (Central Eurasian or West Slavic clades)
but it's M458+!!!!!

I've create 4.C section for them!!!

We've got NEW (BUT VERY SMALL) M458 subclade

We are waiting for L1029 SNP to test!!!

Еще одна подветвь для M458
Семейство Rytel.
ИМХО К этой ветви относятся гаплотипы: 11811 и 202575

Потихоньку, все беспризорные ветви найдут свое место на дереве R1a. :)
Вот еще бы найти место для семейства Lane.

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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #1 : 26 Февраль 2012, 11:48:46 »
Łukasz Lubicz Łapiński
New Subclade under R1a-M458 discovered in "R1a1a and Subclades Project"
For now it's only Rytel family members, but markers shows clearly that they don't belonge to N & P clusters (Central European and West Slavic types)
So we've got 3rd genetic line under quite wide M458 family.
Set of 104 Y67/Y111 samples (positive for M458 SNP marker) from the project drawn on "genealogy tree" you've got in GIF file.
Common ancestor of R1a M458 clade, could lived abt year 2000 B.C. (+-300 years),
somewhere in Central Europe, when his descendants splitted on 3 lines.


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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #2 : 26 Февраль 2012, 13:59:13 »
По возрастам, вроде, близко к теме, но может оказаться и поболее чуток.

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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #3 : 26 Февраль 2012, 14:03:52 »
У меня выходит похоже:
Rytel TMRCA 500-600 лет назад
M458 - 4200 лн
L260 - 3200 лн

Расчет в ТНТ скриптом Игоря (Овода)

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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #4 : 26 Февраль 2012, 16:07:29 »
Да, я про то же, у меня близко к Вашим датам.
Но это уже не вопрос критики уважаемого Lappa.
Даты в пределах погрешности.

То есть, возвращаясь к нашим разговорам:
M458 ближе к датам еще до-балто-славянской общности.
А вот L260 похож уже на славянскую метку.

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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #5 : 06 Май 2012, 22:23:14 »
Rytel TMRCA 500-600 лет назад

1. Так точно. Общий предок жил между 1421 а 1620 гг.
2. TMRCA? Чё это?

А как назвать семейство Rytel? Very Old Antes? :)
Если серьезно - я согласен на предложенное название (Old Antes)

Может сразу Янци как Антов звали в Китае? ;D
Лучше уже звать Рутулами http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8B
Шучу. ;D
Но серёзно к сожалению ничего с Антами не получиться.
А то потому, что по всем данным Рытельцы пришли из Пруссии, Германии а может быть даже с Италии.
Потому нет никакой ближайшей связи со Словянами и мы сами по себе. :P

Семейство Рытель [M458+, L260-, L1029-] - "Rytel M458*"

ВОТ ЭТО ДА!  :)



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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #6 : 16 Апрель 2017, 14:03:40 »
Новость дня :)
#182590 / Rytel / R1a-Rytel M458* M458+ L260- CTS11962- L1029-
Новость дня! номер два. :)
#205198 / Korablyov  L1029- CTS11962-

Плюс уважаемому Шаду.

То есть Кораблёвы четко садятся на ту же реликтовую ветвь, что и Рытели (Rytel).
Интересно то, что Rytel - это польский дворянский род. На русский язык транскрибируется как Ритель, Риттель. Во всяком случае в описании герба Шелига указаны следующие рода (похоже родственные): Rytel, Rytelewski, Rytelski, Ryttel.
Правда интриги добавляет тот факт, что в гербе Любич также упомянут род Ритель (Rytel, Ryttel). Так как не силён в польской генеалогии - я в замешательстве.
В любом случае плюс в том, что генеалогия дворянского рода в теории и приближении должна быть более-менее хорошо прослежена. Перед тем как искать дальше хотел бы получить совет от кого знающего - что за Рители сидят в проекте Masovian Nobility.

И может пора уже их выделить в отдельную ветвь?

UPD
Субклад R1a1a1*-Unclustered, R1a1a; RYTEL 1648/1730 Rytele Swieckie; Unknown Origin; 211544 (на расстоянии 4 от R1a1a; R1a1a; Rytel; Poland; HEGB8 171827)
Речь идет об этом населенном пункте: Rytele Święckie
И об этой ветви Рителей: http://rytel.org/
По их версии Рители имеют прусское происхождение: http://rytel.org/geneza.php (хотя обоснование на уровне "народной этимологии")

А по снипам Рителей информации так и нет?

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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #7 : 18 Апрель 2017, 11:14:19 »
А по снипам Рителей информации так и нет?
A11460+
Как и Томашевский.

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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #8 : 18 Апрель 2017, 14:21:32 »
А по снипам Рителей информации так и нет?
A11460+
Как и Томашевский.

Не вижу этого снипа на дереве YFull...

UPD A11460  8738369 (C->A)
У #205198 Korablyov он С. То есть A11460-

То есть на основании (видимо) сниппака выделена отдельная ветвь R1a-A11460 (параллельная R-L260 и R-CTS11962?
Но 205198 Korablyov к ней не принадлежит и так и остается R-Y2604*.
« Последнее редактирование: 18 Апрель 2017, 14:28:10 от Шад »

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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #9 : 18 Апрель 2017, 16:26:24 »
А по снипам Рителей информации так и нет?
A11460+
Как и Томашевский.

Не вижу этого снипа на дереве YFull...

UPD A11460  8738369 (C->A)
У #205198 Korablyov он С. То есть A11460-

То есть на основании (видимо) сниппака выделена отдельная ветвь R1a-A11460 (параллельная R-L260 и R-CTS11962?
Но 205198 Korablyov к ней не принадлежит и так и остается R-Y2604*.
У одного из Рителей в  YSeq протестировали несколько приватных Томашевского. A11460 был найден положительным. Таким образом новая ветвь R-A11460 является второй ветвью под M458 параллельной к R-PF7521.
В YFull добавим в следующий релиз дерева.

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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #10 : 19 Декабрь 2018, 21:35:31 »
Новый A11460: 360908 Aksić из Сербии.

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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #11 : 09 Июль 2023, 13:14:00 »
Новый A11460: 360908 Aksić из Сербии.

Yes. That's me  :)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A11460/
R-A11460* TMRCA 2600 ybp Polish (Tomaszewski)
R-A11460>Y85725 TMRCA 1800 ybp Poles
R-A11460>BY202471 TMRCA 1400 ybp
North and South Slavs.The young branch R-BY202471 is the most numerous of all discovered branches of haplogroup R-A11460. I know of six members of this branch who have done the BiG tests or the Nebule test. There are quite a few of them that haven't done much testing and no doubt belong to the BY202471 branch. In the coming period, I will write to you in more detail about where members of R-BY202471 are present and spread.

R-A11460>undiscovered branch TMRCA 1400-2000 ybp ? Ukrainian, Bulgarian and the Ledford family from England/Germany.

The Ukrainian was doing a big test of the B Y-700
Bulgarian did only SNP testing. If he did BIG, he would form a new branch with a Ukrainian. The Ledford family of England, originally from Germany, would also belong to the same branch.

IN85355 Ukraine R-A11460
13 25 15 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 11 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 14 20 31 12-15-15-16 10 11 19-23 15 16 21 20 34-40 13 11

MI69307 Bulgaria R-M458
13 25 16 10 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 15 9-10 11 11 24 14 21 31 12-15-15-16 11 11 19-23 15 16 20 20 33-40 13 11

You can see the Ledford haplotypes at: The Ledford Project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ledford?iframe=yresults

I don't know in which branch the tested Russian would match.
YS8219 -Yseq,  Кировская область - Росси́я
13 24 16 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 11 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 14 20 31 12-14-15-16 11 11 19-23 16 17 21 19 33-38 13 11

281796 Poland Tomaszewski R-A11460
13 25 16 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 11 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 14 20 31 12-15-15-17 11 11 19-23 16 16 18 18 33-41 12 11

The Russian could form a new branch with Tomaszewski from Poznań.
« Последнее редактирование: 23 Август 2023, 14:30:03 от Aca539 »

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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #12 : 14 Июль 2023, 02:07:13 »
I will show you more detailed information about members of haplogroup R-BY202471.
Haplotypes R-BY202471 are easy to recognize.
Characteristic markers for BY202471 are for example: YCAII = 20-23 or 20-21, or DYS447 = 24, or DYS481 = 23.

List of haplogroup members: R-BY202471
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY202471/

The Kit: 182590 - y full: YF068098 Rytel family from Mazovia. There are more tested Rytel and you can see their haplotypes on the FTDNA R1a project or on the Polish project.
Rytel haplotype: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/POL-LITHNOBILITY?iframe=yresults
About the Rytel family: http://rytel.org/herby.php

Kit: 845269 The Sell or Kass family, in parentheses is (Kass) I don't know what the tested person's real last name is.
What I found out from the tested one is that they are from Elbeg/Elbing near Gdansk. At the beginning of the 20th century, the ancestor of the tested Sell moved to America. The Sell family are Germans.
Sell ​​has 37 markers tested and is closest to Rytel's haplotypes. They have differences of 3/37 and 4/37.

Five years ago, someone appeared at the FTDNA matches, he has 111 markers tested and he has not joined any FTDNA project. I contacted him and he did not answer me. This tested one appears in some members of BY202471 in matches on 1/25 and 2/25. The last name of the tested person is probably German. This individual may belong to haplogroup R-BY202471.

Kit: 252017 Tested Lisicki - Zajaczkowska from Poland. I don't know what the real last name is. I don't know where he is from Poland.

Recently, someone from Poland appeared on y full., id: YF119725
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY202402/
As things stand, a person will not and does not intend to subscribe to y full. I contacted him and he barely responded. He does not know his origins before 1900, he is from Warsaw. That's all I found out

Kit: 183343 The tested person's last name is Bichev and his origin is Russian from the Воро́нежа.

Kit: 307200 Tested Taumurzaev is from Russia and he is a Balkar from the Caucasus.
God knows how they got to Balkaria. Obviously, it is about some assimilated Russian 300/400 years ago, perhaps the assimilation is older and dates back to the Middle Ages.

Apart from Poland, Russia and possibly Germany. Branch R-BY202471 is also present in the Czech Republic. Nobody has officially appeared from the Czech Republic so far. However, in anonymous research in Moravia, a branch of R-BY202471 was found.

There is one on FTDNA that is R-BY202471* Unknown origin. He left no information.
« Последнее редактирование: 01 Сентябрь 2023, 16:39:06 от Aca539 »

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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #13 : 17 Июль 2023, 22:32:53 »
As is known from history, the Ottoman Empire was present in the Balkans until 1912. The population that lived near the Habsburg Monarchy or the Venetian Republic has some continuity and their surnames are somewhat older. The population that lived for a long time under Ottoman rule has younger surnames.
Of the South Slavic members of the R-BY202471 haplogroup, three performed the tests. One BiG Y-500 and two Nebula Genomics.
There are those tested in FTDNA, Nebula, Yseq and in the Belgrade laboratories.

Based on what we have, I tried to cluster genera that are close to each other. Taking into account geographic proximity and possible kinship as well as data from ethnographic literature. Where did the older ancestors immigrate from 200/300 or more years ago.
The results of the tested persons are mainly from www.poreko.rs Dnk and FTDNA.

Kit: 360908 - y full: id: YF016786 Aksić/Аксић (older surname Krstić/Крстић), Žitinje, Vitina, (south Serbia).
Genealogical line of the person tested: great grandfather Veljko 1893, AKSA 1863, Sava around 1838, Cvetko around 1808 - Bojko around 1780. Bojko's father or grandfather was called KRSTA.
Descendants of Krsta (Krstic family) are branched into 14 surnames. Surnames are younger and were formed during 1912-1945 by ancestors who were born in the period 1830-1870. The Krstic family originates from Sevce/Štrpce near Prizren. Ancestor Bojko and his brother moved to Žitinje/Vitina at the beginning of the 19th century.

Kit: IN68454 Stojanović/Стојановић, Gornje Nerodimlje, Uroševac, (south Serbia)
Genealogical line of the person tested: great grandfather Vitko 1905, Jorga around 1875, STOJAN around 1850, Boško around 1820.
And this family originates from the same region as the Krstić family. Boško was originally from Vrbeštica/Štrpcе. Boško's son Stojan, after whom the family bears the surname Stojanović, moved to Gornje Nerodimlje/Uroševac around 1870.

Kit: IN65770 Petrović/Петровић, Đakovica, (south Serbia)
Genealogical line of the person tested: great grandfather Krsta born 1861, PETAR around 1836, Vasa around 1806, Nikola around 1781. The ancestor of the tested Petrović moved to Đakovica at the beginning of the 19th century from the vicinity of Štrpce.

Štrpce/Штрпце municipality:

All three families come from the same microregion, from the same area. On the map you can see where the places are located: Vrbeštica/Врбештица and Sevce/Севце.
It is likely that all three families had common ancestors during the 18th century.

There are two haplotypes from Bulgaria. They are close to the southern Serbs.

Kit: 507880 Petrov/Draganov-Петров/Драганов family from Debeli Rat, Elena, (central Bulgaria)
Petrov was tested on only 25 markers.

Kit: FTDNA Kaloferov/Калоферов from Plovdiv Region (central Bulgaria)
The surname Kaloferov is an indicative and toponymic surname. The Kaloferov family formed their surname after the place Kalofer near Karlovo.

Kalofer is a small town in central Bulgaria. Kalofer used to be a trading and economically strong small town. There used to be many tailor shops in Kalofer for wardrobes and clothes.

Apart from Bulgarians, settled Serbs also lived in Kalofer. The Kalofer Serbs were last mentioned during the 19th century.
Famous former Serbian merchant families from Kalofer are: Tošković/Тошковић and Zolotović/Золотовић. I researched the origins of these merchant families and managed to research the origins of the Tošković family. The trading family Tošković from Kalofer is originally from Sremska Mitrovica in Serbia.
You can read more about this family: https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=2318.20#msg189701
About Kalofer and trade:
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=2318.20#msg189173

The tested Kaloferov and Petrov are of the same family, because they have one common and characteristic mutation on the marker DYS454 = 12
On the marker DYS464 they have:
Kaloferov: 12-12-15-16
Petrov: 12-12-16-16
Kaloferov has 37 tested markers and differs from the southern Serbs on 3-4 of the 37 markers.

The genetic connection of the Bulgarians Kaloferov and Petrov with the Serbs definitely has something to do with the Serbs who settled in Kalofer.

source:
Косовска Котлина, (1931+1935), Атанасије Урошевић
Горња Морава и Изморник, (1929), Атанасије Урошевић
Шар планинска Жупа Сиринић, (1939), Атанасије Урошевић
_____________________________________________________
Y full; id: YF106073 Josifovski/Јосифовски, from the vicinity of Debar, (western Macedonia)
Last year he formed a branch: R-BY202471>Y345540, the age of the branch is estimated at 1100 years. The person formed this branch with a Macedonian is from Hungary.

If the TMRCA is approximately correct, that person from Hungary must have Balkan origins.
It is known that the population from the interior of the Balkans migrated to Hungary since the Middle Ages due to the Ottoman conquest of the Balkan territories.
The person from Hungary is no longer on the y full tree.
« Последнее редактирование: 03 Сентябрь 2023, 02:00:26 от Aca539 »

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Re: M458->A11460
« Ответ #14 : 17 Июль 2023, 22:54:57 »
Genus: Burmazi/Бурмази

Kit: IN55322 Jojić/Јојић, Pilica/Bajina Bašta, (western Serbia)
Milošević/Милошевић, Dub/Bajina Bašta, (western Serbia)
Petrović/Петровић, Oglađenovac/Valjevo, (western Serbia)
Milinković/Милинковић, Dokmir/UB, (western Serbia)
Burmazović/Бурмазовић, Runjani/Loznica, (western Serbia)

Except for Jojić, who was tested at FTDNA, all the others were tested in Belgrade.

This large and branched genus is well covered in ethnographic monographs. The genus is divided into: Burmazi, Jojic and Dubljani. They moved to Dub and Pilica at the end of the 17th century from Moraca - Plav (Polimlje).

Younger surnames were formed after ancestors who lived in the 18th century and in the first half of the 19th century.
Here you can see the list of this genus according to the state from 1900-1920. years: https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=52.480#msg143909

source:
Соколска Нахија, Љуба Павловић, (1908-1913).
Колубара и Подгорина, Љуба Павловић, (1900-1907)
Рађевина и Јадар, Видосав Николић-Стојанчевић, (1900-1908).
Рађевина и Јадар, Боривоје Милојевић, (1906-1912).
Ужичка Црна Гора, Љуба Павловић, (1910-1920).
Ваљевска Тамнава, Љуба Павловић, (1906-1912)
__________________________________________________________
Genus: Bogaši/Богаши

1 Dunjić/Дуњић, Rokci/Aleksandrovac, (central-southern Serbia)
2 Dunjić/Дуњић, Boturići/Aleksandrovac, (central-southern Serbia)

They were tested in Belgrade. The oldest family name is: Bogaši.
Their other older surnames are Bojanić-Dunjić, they also have other younger surnames that come from their ancestors who lived in the 18th century and in the first half of the 19th century. This genus is widespread on the Ibar and Kopaonik.
The native village is Bojanići near Raška. The settlement of Bojanići was once a hamlet within the settlement of Biljanovac.
This genus was settled in Biljanovac-Bojanići in the second half of the 17th century from the vicinity of Plav (Polimlje).

Jovanović/Јовановић, Velika Sugubina/Kragujevac (central Serbia)
It was tested in Belgrade.
He comes from the Bogaš family, they moved to Velika Sugubina at the beginning of the 19th century.

Here you can see a list of where they live, according to the situation from 1930-1953: https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=6264.220#msg164581

source:
Радослав Љ. Павловић „Копаоник“, 1934 - 1953. г.
Радосава Љ. Павловића „Подибар и Гокчаница“
Петар Ж. Петровић „Рашка“
Татомир Вукановић, Дреница“, 1933-1937. г
Животије Живановић, „Стопања“ .1997
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Kit: 645135, Locasio, from Italy
The tested one must have originated from the Balkans. Individual migrations of Balkan peoples to Italy during the Middle Ages and later are known. There are literatures about it.
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Ivanović/Ивановић, Jajčić/Ljig (western Serbia)
It was tested in Belgrade. The older family surname is Šević/Шевић. The ancestors moved to Jajčić at the end of the 17th century from Sjenica (Polimlje).

source:
Колубара и Подгорина, Љуба Павловић, (1900-1907)
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Živanović/Живановић, Klenovac/Zaječar, (eastern Serbia)
Tested in Belgrade. The family of the tested person moved to Klenovac in the 19th century from Sikole, Negotin. They have relatives in that place who came in the great migration between 1690-1737. from somewhere in Polimlje.

source:
Неготинска Крајина и Кључ, (1912-1925), Коста Јовановић
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There is also one Albanian from  Dibër/Diber district (Northeastern Albania). I do not know the last name of the person tested. I have his haplotype. The person tested is from this place Kalle: https://my.maptons.com/3562343

source: Albanian DNA Project (Rrënjët)
« Последнее редактирование: 23 Август 2023, 22:40:25 от Aca539 »

 

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