АвторТема: J-ZS3128  (Прочитано 19231 раз)

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Оффлайн VictorV.Автор темы

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    • Дворянский род Безручко-Высоцких и другие фамилии.
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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #285 : 07 Июнь 2020, 20:44:38 »

А потом указан сыновний для ZS3127 субклад FT303395 с 22 снипами, 0 приватными снипами после него, и... всего одним представителем, согласно дереву. Хотя, должно быть как минимум два образца. Возможно, протестировались два близких родственника, у которых после ZS3127 все 22 снипа оказались общими. Но, один наверно скрытый до такорй степени, что его в Block Tree не показывают.

Так ведь их обоих не показывают - того что оказался со мной на ZS3127* и втогорого -того что оказался на FT303395. Да, возможно что это всё таки родственники, но не факт.
« Последнее редактирование: 07 Июнь 2020, 22:32:50 от VictorV. »

Оффлайн Radon

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #286 : 08 Июнь 2020, 11:02:44 »
Hello. My name is David, I'm from Serbia. I also belong to PF7263 branch of J1 haplogroup. I noticed interested treads about J1 ZS3128 on Molgen, and, with assistance of Yaroslav succeeded in signing up on Molgen. I thanks Yaroslav this way once more.

I'm bad in english (or any language) so I will just paste copy of my message to Yaroslav on Anthrogenica:

Hello

My name is David. I noticed two interesting threads on Molgen, about ZS3128 and L1189. I tried to sign up but I failed. Anyway I would like to share some informations about possible ZS3128 in Serbian population.

1) First, about Greek who is ZS3128* on YFull, it's probably Gavras. He is from Peleponnese and he is interesting for Serbian samples because they share some common values like DYS456-16, DYS389I-14, and DYS448-22

546346 Gavras Gavras, Peloponnese, Greece J-ZS3128 13 23 14 10 12-18 11 13 12 14 11 30 20 8-10 11 11 27 14 22 31 14-15-15-16 11 10 20-22 16 13 17 19 32-38 11 10

2) Second, we have work from Mirabal et al:"Human Y-chromosome short tandem repeats: A tale of acculturation and migrations as mechanisms for the diffusion of agriculture in the Balkan peninsula"

In supplemental table 2, under line 15 we have following haplotype:

393-390-19-391-385a/b-439-389I-392-389II-458-437-448-H4-456-438-635
13-23-14-10-13/18-12-15-11-31-21.2-14-22-11-16-10-22

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.21235

He have little elevated DYS389I (15 instead of 14), but he is very close to Gavras haplotype. In Montenegro (this table is for Montenegro) in private testings we haven't found such haplotype , but we find few with values DYS389I-14 and DYS458-20.2. Such haplotypes are caracteristic for the brotherhood of Radmužević from tribe of Šekular. It's a small tribe close to border of Serbia (Kosovo) and Albania

https://www.google.com/maps/place/%C5%A0ekular,+Montenegro/@42.7429855,19.8692031,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x13528cfb322ee205:0x53cd61409775f705!8m2!3d42.7448398!4d19.9080051

I find just this work on english. It's first mention in St Stefan chart 1314 year but as area bordering with the territory of Banja monastery, but informations about it become more secure after Ottoman arrival. Radmužević brotherhood probably come latter. Low differentiation between them should point in this direction

https://books.google.rs/books?id=CN6mCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=%C5%A1ekular&source=bl&ots=yPH5qlP-7Q&sig=ACfU3U3mP0-8VoP1FHtqP-G5I_aF-MCx2Q&hl=sr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj1gYLh4-_pAhXUi1wKHV6ND6M4ChDoATADegQIChAB#v=onepage&q=%C5%A1ekular&f=false


3) We have work:"Y-chromosome genetic data defined by 23 short tandem repeats in a Serbian population on the Balkan peninsula"

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03014460.2019.1584242

Here, in supplemental material we have two samples, ID99 and ID100. They have most caracteristic haplotypes for Serbian ZS3128

ID-393-390-19-391-385a-385b-439-389I-392-389II-458-437-448-H4-456-576-570-438-481-549-533-635-643

ID99-13-23-14-10-13-18-12-14-11-30-20.2-14-22-11-16-17-18-10-27-12-11-22-9
ID100-13-23-14-10-13-18-12-14-11-30-20.2-14-22-11-15-17-18-10-27-12-11-22-9

4) We have one work about Y-DNA composition of Župa Aleksandrovačka, area around city of Aleksandrovac:"Непосредни резултати нових мултидисциплинарних етногенетских истраживања Срба и становништва Србије (на примеру Александровачке жупе)" ("Immediate results of new multidisciplinary ethnogenetic researches of Serbs and population of Serbia- on the example of Župa Aleksandrovačka")

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Municipality+of+Aleksandrovac/@43.4684816,20.8525549,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x47566862e88a1153:0x7c137a7c0f460ce8!2sAleksandrovac!3b1!8m2!3d43.4604716!4d21.0489533!3m4!1s0x475642a381f7d10d:0xf843dd084a213a64!8m2!3d43.4768404!4d20.9267235

http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0861/2014/0350-08611401245T.pdf

Here, on 14th page, in line number 16 we have participant name Marić with following haplotype:

393-390-19-391-385a/b-439-389I-392-389II-458-437-448-H4-456-438-635
13-23-14-10-13/18-12-14-11-30-20-14-20-11-16-10-22

He have slightly different value on DYS448 (20 instead of usual 22) but 16 on 456 and 14 on 389I like other Serian haplotypes

I hope I made good case for Serbian ZS3128

Best regards

Levantino II

It looks that Copy/paste didn't go quite well but I hope it's enoughcomprehensible.

I'm glad to be on Molgen  ;)

Оффлайн Farroukh

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #287 : 08 Июнь 2020, 11:08:53 »
Radon, welcome!
You can post any preferred language.

Оффлайн Radon

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #288 : 08 Июнь 2020, 12:03:11 »
Hvala Farroukh :)

I will try my best with English but if something isn't clear enough please let me know. I will try to explain best I can

Оффлайн Farroukh

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #289 : 08 Июнь 2020, 12:07:46 »
Pozdrav, drugar! Ya malo razumem srpski  :)
Kako ste, shta radish?  :)

Оффлайн Radon

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #290 : 08 Июнь 2020, 12:17:46 »
Dobro :) (Good)

Pripremam papire kolegi za posao/ I'm collecting documents for colleague and his business

Sparan dan u Beogradu/ Sultry day in Belgrade :D

You?

Оффлайн Андрей Ш.

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #291 : 10 Июнь 2020, 23:30:35 »
David, thank you.
How can you explain all ZS3128 findings in Serbia / Montenegro / Kosovo? As for as I know Slavic tribes appeared in Balkan in 5-6 century but ZS3128 is much older. 
« Последнее редактирование: 12 Июнь 2020, 02:03:53 от Андрей Ш. »

Оффлайн Radon

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #292 : 11 Июнь 2020, 11:00:01 »
Radon, thank you.
How can you explain all ZS3128 findings in Serbia / Montenegro / Kosovo? As for as I know Slavic tribes appeared in Balkan in 5-6 century but ZS3128 is much older.

Hello Andrei

I believe they come from the south, probably not so long ago, at least not before 16 century. They probably come from the area of today Macedonia, most probably West Macedonia where we have Misaljević who is tasted as L1189 on 23&me. They also could came from Albania, but for now I don't have enough DNA proofs for that theory. Unfortunately  phylogenetic tree for ZS3128 on Balkan is still not good enough and we should wait for more results.

About Z3128 on Balkan, I believe it was here before Slavic arrival, even before  the Romans, but to what community they belong it's not clear. We talk about Thracians, Peonians etc but the best thing would be to have some antient DNA. There is a rumor about some ancient DNA from Maliq in today Albania. This results should be about some early bronze age remains. It' little to early for ZS3128 but it's good to have something to hope for.

Оффлайн Андрей Ш.

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #293 : 11 Июнь 2020, 22:54:20 »
Hello David,
This fully coincides with my version of the events of the 16th century, but I did not have so many facts to analyze, only assumptions. My ancestor (ZS3128) has the origin of modern southern Albania and left this land in the 16th century. This coincides with the Osman invasion to Balkan and the Orthodox population escape. It is very likely that some of the Christians went north to Orthodox Serbia and Montenegro, and some to eastern Bulgaria and later to South Russia. Thank you for the facts that you shared.
Indeed, Balkan branch of ZS3128 could belong to Thracians, Peonians or Illyrians.
Yaroslav proposed an interesting theory of L1189 branch belonging to Hallstatt culture. I'm not expert in ancient european history but it really could explain  the presence of the L1189 branches in different Europen regions(South, West, North, Central).
« Последнее редактирование: 12 Июнь 2020, 02:03:25 от Андрей Ш. »

Оффлайн Radon

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #294 : 12 Июнь 2020, 07:43:59 »
Hello David,
This fully coincides with my version of the events of the 16th century, but I did not have so many facts to analyze, only assumptions. My ancestor (ZS3128) has the origin of modern southern Albania and left this land in the 16th century. This coincides with the Osman invasion to Balkan and the Orthodox population escape. It is very likely that some of the Christians went north to Orthodox Serbia and Montenegro, and some to eastern Bulgaria and later to South Russia. Thank you for the facts that you shared.
Indeed, Balkan branch of ZS3128 could belong to Thracians, Peonians or Illyrians.
Yaroslav proposed an interesting theory of L1189 branch belonging to Hallstatt culture. I'm not expert in ancient european history but it really could explain  the presence of the L1189 branches in different Europen regions(South, West, North, Central).

I noticed your results while I read the earlier read the tread. :) There was a lot of movement into and from Balkan, and I also agree with Yaroslav about previously existence of ZS3128 in Central and Eastern Europe, so it's really hard to establish right paths of migration. Serbs, Greeks and other orthodox population from Balkan flee to Russia probably from the beginning of Ottoman conquest. Such biggest event for Serbs was Great Serbian migration at the end of the 17th century. It drove people from today Macedonia and Kosovo into today Central Europe, especially Hungary and today Croatia. With them also flee one number of Greek speaking population, especially from today West Macedonia and this is not thing in question. Today Albanians like to overestimate number of Albanians, even Albanian historians earlier ignore that event :)

Some number of Serbs went into Russia on the basis of Empress Catherine the Great and they were settled in territory of today Ukraine and South Russia. I don't know if this events can be traced with existence of some ZS3128

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_in_Russia#Russian_Empire

I'm sorry if I'm sound like Serbian propagandist but it's our version of the events.

Оффлайн Radon

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #295 : 29 Июнь 2020, 15:51:33 »
Ярослав, что значит научный образец и о каких возможных публикациях идет речь?

YFull помимо bam файлов от коммерческих лабораторий использует также и bam файлы из научных публикаций, в которых применялось секвенирование нового поколения (NGS) достаточного качества для размещения на дереве.

Список публикаций, из которых взяты научные образцы, находится здесь. На этой же странице в верхнем правом углу есть Поиск по номеру образца, из какой публикации он взят. Но, к сожалению, по образцу ERS2364921 мне пока что не выдаёт никакой информации.

I don't know if this question is still actual , but sample ERS2364921 is probably from the paper "A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean". In European Nucleotide Archive there is a sample with that name and study accession is pointing on previous paper. In it this sample is marked as GR99-43 from Continental Greece. Unfortunately I didn't find more informations about that sample.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS2364921

Оффлайн Yaroslav

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #296 : 29 Июнь 2020, 16:37:35 »
I don't know if this question is still actual , but sample ERS2364921 is probably from the paper "A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean". In European Nucleotide Archive there is a sample with that name and study accession is pointing on previous paper. In it this sample is marked as GR99-43 from Continental Greece. Unfortunately I didn't find more informations about that sample.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS2364921

Thank you for your information!

Yes I have found that the sample ERS2364921 is from A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean but did not see that ERS2364921 is a Greek from the mainland Greece.

I should ask YFull team to indicate Greece near ERS2364921 on the YFull tree.

Оффлайн Radon

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #297 : 29 Июнь 2020, 18:25:01 »
I don't know if this question is still actual , but sample ERS2364921 is probably from the paper "A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean". In European Nucleotide Archive there is a sample with that name and study accession is pointing on previous paper. In it this sample is marked as GR99-43 from Continental Greece. Unfortunately I didn't find more informations about that sample.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS2364921

Thank you for your information!

Yes I have found that the sample ERS2364921 is from A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean but did not see that ERS2364921 is a Greek from the mainland Greece.

I should ask YFull team to indicate Greece near ERS2364921 on the YFull tree.

No problems. I'm glad I could help :)

Оффлайн Андрей Ш.

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Re: J-ZS3128
« Ответ #298 : 30 Июнь 2020, 02:51:03 »

ZS3128 tree has new branches

 

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