АвторТема: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109  (Прочитано 4462 раз)

0 Пользователей и 1 Гость просматривают эту тему.

Оффлайн abmunteanuАвтор темы

  • Сообщений: 77
  • Страна: ro
  • Рейтинг +10/-0
Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #75 : 12 Март 2024, 22:44:34 »
PART 2

It is obvious that the majority of the men who have taken an Y-STR test (Y-37 or Y-111) are reluctant to take the Big Y test. The price is the biggest reason, and this is caused by the fact that FamilyTreeDNA has almost no competition when it comes to Y-DNA testing, so they are not pressured to lower the price. They did lower the price a few years ago when they put the BAM file (with the detailed results) behind a paywall of 100 USD. It was a good move for the consumers, because you don’t actually need the BAM file to upload the results to YFull, the free VCF file being good enough. And it was a true reduction of the price, which convinced many to order the Big Y test, including myself (until then I was reluctant to upgrade my father’s Y-111 test to Big Y). But now that incentive doesn’t work anymore. The management team at FTDNA doesn’t seem inclined to lower the price further, but it did something else. It promised a free Y haplogroup that is at least halfway to the precise haplogroup offered by the Big Y test. This offer applies not only to all those customers that take the Family Finder (autosomal) test today, but also to those that took it in the past. FTDNA hopes that a portion of these customers will pay for the upgrade to Big Y in order to get their precise haplogroup.

https://blog.familytreedna.com/y-dna-haplogroups-family-finder/

However, from what I’ve seen, there are many men who only bought an Y-STR test, and no Family Finder test, because they bought the autosomal test from another company, for example from Ancestry. So, they don’t benefit from the FTDNA offer of a free semi precise haplogroup, and are stuck with their generic haplogroup. Because of the recent increase in prices for goods, especially for food, many of the Y-STR test takers probably don’t want to spend money for the upgrade to Big Y. Some do have the money available, but they don’t see the advantages of this upgrade. They think the Y-STR matches are enough. What they don’t know is the fact that these Y-STR matches are very unreliable for genealogical research. Since I’ve given the link to this forum thread to all the matches that were contacted by me, I hope some of those that didn’t respond will read this message and maybe change their mind. I will try to explain why the Big Y test is a must have for those really interested in the genealogy of their paternal line.

There are two types of matches when it comes to Y-DNA testing. The Y-STR matches are discovered by the Y-37 or Y-111 tests and the Big Y matches are discovered by the Big Y test. It must be said that the Big Y test also discovers the Y-STR matches and lists them, but the Y-37 and Y-111 tests do not discover the Big Y matches.

1) STR Matches (STR = short tandem repeat) => number of repetitions of DNA sequences at 12, 25, 37, 67, 111 markers
=================
When you take an Y-37 or Y-111 test (or the discontinued Y-12 or Y-67 tests), FTDNA looks only for the very old mutations (SNPs), like I-M253 (or E-M35, etc.) and gives you the haplogroup I-M253 (or E-M35, etc.) if the mutation was found on your Y chromosome. This is a very generic haplogroup, not very useful for genealogical research. Then FTDNA looks at the repetitions of the DNA structure at the 12 , 25 and 37 markers. Based on the number of these repetitions on your Y chromosome and on the Y chromosomes of the other men who have taken an Y-37 or Y-111 test, FTDNA creates the list of STR matches. These matches are related to you, you have a common ancestor with them. But you cannot tell for sure how close you are related to them. You may say that the Y-67 matches are more closely related to you than the Y-12 matches, but this is not always the case. See the explanation of the unreliability of the Y-STR matches below.

2) SNP Matches (SNP = single-nucleotide polymorphism) => mutation M253, P109, FGC22045, etc.
=================
When you take a Big Y test, FTDNA looks for all the mutations on your Y chromosome, old and new. Based on the newest mutations found on your Y chromosome and on the Y chromosomes of the other people who took the Big Y test, FTDNA creates the list of SNP matches, that is the list of Big Y matches. These are your closest relatives on the strict paternal line and the common ancestor lived hundreds of years ago. So, in order to do genealogical research on your strict paternal line (father, grandfather, great-grandfather, etc.) you must take the Big Y test. The SNP matches are very reliable in predicting the closeness of the relationship. The more SNPs (mutations) on the Y chromosome you have in common with another man, the more closely you are related to him. And you can predict the time when the common ancestor lived, based on the newest mutations that you share with another man.


Unreliability of the STR matches in predicting the closeness of the genealogical relationship
===========================

I will give two examples of why the Y-STR tests (Y-37 and Y-111) are not of much value when it comes to judging how close you are related to the matches. Also look at the screenshots linked below.

1.1) Matches that are at the same level, for example Y-12 matches with the same genetic distance (GD), can be closely related (a common ancestor who lived hundreds of years ago) or distantly related (a common ancestor who lived thousands of years ago) and you cannot distinguish between these two situations. The same is true for Y-67, Y-37 and Y-25, without exception. The only Y-STR matches that are definitely closely related are the Y-111 matches, but these are very rare, you get one of these matches only if you are very lucky.

For example, both R. Djukic and D. Radosavljevic are only Y-12 matches (GD = 1) with my father and have Serbia, a Balkan country, as paternal country of origin. But R. Djukic has a haplogroup (I-FGC22054) closely related to my father's haplogroup and the common ancestor lived 400-800 years ago. In contrast, D. Radosavljevic has a haplogroup (I-FTA28277) distantly related to my father's haplogroup and the common ancestor lived many thousands years ago. So, the fact that they are both Y-12 matches is deceptive, and this is why these Y-STR (12, 25, 37, 67) matches are not reliable in predicting the closeness of the genealogical relationship. The Big Y test is the only one that indicates correctly the degree of closeness (Djukic is a Big Y match with my father, whereas D. Radosavlijevic is not). If R. Djukic and D. Radosavljevic had not taken the Big Y test, I could have been inclined to think that they were both equally closely related to my father, which is not the case at all.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RvhpMWIpWiahFXoIlHz5qekFaZd2ujYl/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UaLbHXlEvBPNbVHGkjYHiPispEeWg12N/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19NcsdEE3Be54ljNuR2wY2lMTqwjvVGJq/view?usp=sharing

1.2) There are Big Y matches which are not Y-STR matches. For example there is a Big Y match named V. Erovic who is not a Y-STR match. And he’s not the only one. There is also B. Todorović who is in the same situation. Both Erovic and Todorović have a common ancestor with my father who lived 400-800 years ago, but they don’t appear as Y-STR matches! If they had not taken the Big Y test, I would never have known about them. This speaks volumes about the unreliability of the Y-STR tests when it comes to matches.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PYUOghwUzD_SSmKjOLm7kdtalqL0lPDz/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jyCazDYz-XnMjJ6X2pjwTaRex3Du7w2T/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10eTcnCzQJ0PvaPqmFgoA6mI5xj2o8HNV/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16h1ifrsg3bF8dCVxIMrMhNCRtXveMLYp/view?usp=sharing

These are just some of the problems with Y-STR matches, but the conclusion is that they are not reliable for genealogical research. This is why the Big Y test is necessary, its results are much more reliable than those of the Y-37 or Y-111 tests.

Finally, a word of caution for those that want to buy a Big Y test: Never order the Big Y test when there is a sale! The “sale” is actually a 20 USD reduction in price, which is almost nothing compared to the total cost. But FTDNA has the tendency to rush the completion of the Big Y tests ordered when on sale, because of their big number and limited time to analyze each one. So, these Y-DNA samples are not analyzed thoroughly and whereas the haplogroup discovered by the test is the correct one, there is the risk that there will be no Big Y matches.

Оффлайн abmunteanuАвтор темы

  • Сообщений: 77
  • Страна: ro
  • Рейтинг +10/-0
Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #76 : 26 Март 2024, 23:03:16 »
This message has two parts.

PART 1

I’ve sent in total 22 messages to Y-12 and Y-25 matches of my father asking about their intention to order the Big Y test, and 6 said they will order it in the near future or even ordered it after I told them the advantages of the Big Y test over their existing Y-STR (Y-12, Y-37, Y-67 or Y-111) test. In all the cases money was not the reason why they didn’t take the Big Y test, but the impression that the Big Y test will not offer much more information than the Y-STR test. I told them that Big Y offers a precise haplogroup shared by hundreds of men, whereas the Y-STR test offers a generic haplogroup (I-M253), shared by tens of millions of men, so it is obvious that the precise haplogroup has much more genealogical relevance than the generic haplogroup. I also told them about the Big Y matches, which are the men most closely related on the strict paternal line, whereas the Y-STR matches are unreliable when judging the closeness of the relationship. See the updated matches map below:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1tAy-Hp70_oDeBaA0jJKE1W2flO8iS38&usp=sharing

While waiting for the results, let’s go back to the genealogical speculation. In the first message from page 4 of this thread, I spoke about Guglielmo de Monteforte, nicknamed Carbone, mentioned on the site of the Monteforte Irpino commune in Italy. I said then that I didn’t find any document mentioning him on the internet. But then I searched better and this time I found the confirmation, from a notarial deed, that this man really existed. He was a vassal of Ruggero din Sanseverino, also known as (a.k.a) Ruggero I Sanseverino.

---------------------
{automatic translation from Italian}
There is little information about the exercise of noble prerogatives, many of which concern the castle of Montoro (Avellino), which he [Ruggero di Sanseverino] owned since at least 1097. His presence at an assembly, held in 1109, during which the lord of Monteforte, Guglielmo Carbone, swore loyalty to Roberto, Ruggero's stepson, who invested him with the lands granted to him, located near San Severino, Lauro and Forino. He also presided over the drafting of a notarial deed, with which he exchanged a building located in Salerno with some lands of Montoro, ceded to the monastery of Cava (1112). He is also mentioned in a deed from 1116, with which he granted land, located near the castle, to a local notary.

https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/ruggero-i-sanseverino_(Dizionario-Biografico)/

He [Ruggero di Sanseverino] inherited from his father the title of Count of Rota and Lord of San Severino and other fiefdoms. Little information regarding his government is affiliated to the castle of Montoro, which he owned since at least 1097. He participated in an investiture assembly in 1109, during which the lord of Monteforte, Guglielmo Carbone, swore loyalty to Roberto, stepson of Ruggero. Guglielmo was invested with the lands located near San Severino, Lauro and Forino.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruggero_I_Sanseverino
----------------

Guglielmo de Monteforte, a.k.a. Guglielmo Carbone, was the lord [owner] of Monteforte Irpino in 1109. Guglielmo is the Italian version of the French name Guillaume, translated in English as William. He was a Norman, like his suzerain (overlord) Ruggero di Sanseverino. But it seems that with the passing of time, the owners of the Monteforte castle gave up on emphasizing their Norman origin, wanting to be recognized as local rulers, but not of foreign origin.

-----------------
The charters of Montevergine offer a very interesting example, that of the lords of Monteforte [Irpino]. [Léon-Robert] Ménager, had already reported the cases of Richard, who in 1102 recalls the Norman origin of his father, Rao [Rolf, Rollo], and of Richard's son, Guillaume qui dicitur Carbone [William, who is called Carbone], who in turn explains the Norman origin of his father, in 1112. What was not remarkable in Ménager's research and that can be useful, however, to note here, is that this type of information does not appear in the following testimonies: in 1138 and 1139, the same Guillaume [Guglielmo] Carbone defined his father Richard exclusively as lord of the castle of Monteforte, and in 1153 his grandson, also named Guillaume, goes so far as to reserve for himself the title of lord of the castle of Monteforte and Furino and only recalls the first name of his father Richard, [without the ethnicity]. They insist on the continuity of castle ownership, more than on the memory of the Norman origin of the family. In fact, around the 1140s, the need to present oneself as Norman seemed less essential, even for those who in the charters of previous years had recalled the Norman origin of their fathers, like Guillaume Carbone.

Rosa Canosa
Discours ethniques et pratiques du pouvoir des Normands d'Italie : sources narratives et documentaires (XIe -XIIe siècles)
https://www.academia.edu/29023259/Discours_ethniques_et_pratiques_du_pouvoir_des_Normands_dItalie_sources_narratives_et_documentaires_Xi_e_Xii_e_si%C3%A8cles_
-------------------

Was Guglielmo Carbone a member of the Montfort family, who gave his name to the Monteforte commune, where he owned the land? It cannot be said for sure, but it’s plausible that members of the Montfort families from France participated to the conquest of southern Italy and Sicily by the Normans. Guglielmo Carbone appears in another document, 30 years later, in 1139.

------------------
{automatic translation from Italian}
The Infornata mill is an ancient water mill in Avellino [Campania], attested as early as the 12th century along the banks of the Fenestrelle-Rigatore. Its existence, with the name of the “De Capu” mill, is attested in a document from 1139, with which the Norman Guglielmo Carbone, feudal lord of Monteforte, ceded half of it to the church of San Leonardo outside Avellino, dependent on the abbey of the Santissima Trinità of Cava de' Tirreni, while the other half belonged to the abbey of Montevergine.

{original text in Latin}
"Ego Guilelmus,qui me vocor Carbone, et fil[ius] dom[ni] Riccardi qui fuit dom[inus] castello Monteforte cum consensu dom. Goffridi fil[io] meo offero Mon. S. Leonardi a foras civit Avellini medietatem in molino quod vocatur De Capu cum integra medietate de mole et pecze et ferraturia et de palate et in partate et in aquiductis suis".

{automatic translation from Latin}
"I, William, who calls myself Carbone, and the son of Sir Richard, who was lord of the castle of Monteforte, with the consent of my son, Sir Geoffrey, offer to Mon[signor] S. Leonardi from outside the town of Avellino half of the mill called De Capu with the whole half of the bulk and the fish and the ironwork and of the palate and in the region and in its aqueducts.”
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulino_dell%27Infornata
--------------------

Оффлайн abmunteanuАвтор темы

  • Сообщений: 77
  • Страна: ro
  • Рейтинг +10/-0
Re: Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109
« Ответ #77 : 26 Март 2024, 23:04:20 »
PART 2

All genealogic speculation must be verified using genetic genealogy. Does my father have matches with ancestors named Carbone? It turns out that yes.

Let’s start with a search for the Carbone surname in the trees of my father’s matches from Ancestry.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HlTg4QTVV0odr5_1d3LLTn2JURiQoXd7/view?usp=sharing

1) S. Weckesser Pickett is a match on Ancestry (9 cM), but also on 23andMe (12 cM).
She has an ancestor named Giuseppe Carbone born in 1828 in Vicari, near Palermo, Sicily. His parents were named Giuseppe Carbone and Adriana Salerno, both born in Italy, in an unspecified place. Judging by the Salerno surname of the wife, they could have been born near Salerno in Campania. This may be another coincidence, or not. Gervase of Tilbury was in Salerno when he was visited by his relative Philip of Salisbury and invited him to his villa in Nola (page 579 of Otia Imperialia). Salerno is close (34 km) to Monteforte Irpino, where Guglielmo Carbone lived.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ravabisa79WbNuHHcJomcvk44wmLh-ut/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nArnqJhkl2D_2BY74m_q8YjbGGfMPYsS/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_H-fE4HoX96yMNvh-ZaPErZ03wmyhl4z/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k3LcCbT1Q72kQRz8RhDLo8XGF_shoNvz/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ngVy7wjreya0bdpaiLpFkZU5OzMTH2Gm/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hNvT99rOVr-Dg-ngkGGpdbPPqTu5n46k/view?usp=sharing (tree in PDF format)

2) A. Parfait is a match (10 cM) on Ancestry.
She has a private tree, so her ancestor named Carbone cannot be viewed. According to her ethnicity estimate, she doesn't have Balkan or East European DNA.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QHfnA7dFWqnZmiy0uVCMcxROm49H924E/view?usp=sharing

3) M.C is a match (7 cM) on Ancestry.
He has a private tree, so his ancestor named Carbone cannot be viewed. According to his ethnicity estimate, his DNA is half Italian and half East European.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iDsMrT91pkmf2VyixltocXRmLAHIPX3h/view?usp=sharing

Let’s continue with a search for the Carbone surname in the trees of my matches from Ancestry. Of course, since they are my matches, they can be related to my father or not. As you can see, S. Weckesser Pickett and A. Parfait are also matches with me, so the shared DNA was inherited from my father. The remaining three matches are not matches with my father, but they can very much be. Let me explain. Initially the matches’ list given by Ancestry included the persons with whom you shared 6 cM of DNA and more. But 2-3 years ago, Ancestry decided that the list was too big, so the matches with whom you shared 6 or 7 cM were to be deleted automatically. The exception were the matches with whom you exchanged messages or the matches that were added to a group. These would not be deleted by Ancestry. Both me and my father had probably 10000 6-7 cm matches. I managed to save maybe 1000 of these matches for my father and 2000 for me. So, there are saved matches in my list who are not present in my father’s list, but are in fact related to him. These may be the case with the matches with Carbone ancestors mentioned below, because all three share 6 or 7 cM of DNA with me.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SyojrDTvKObBaHNAP0O-nrIoc7K-I8ZJ/view?usp=sharing

4) M. Harrington is a match (7 cM) on Ancestry.
Her ancestor was named Nunzio Carbone, who died in 1863 in Tricarico, Matera, Basilicata, Italy.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CvGVgLwyeXs_SsqxD81IJ1PmTdKvhDk5/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ot4N9ssYzFiL60oIthmtlyN7n73MoJt9/view?usp=sharing (tree in PDF format)

5) tmelch66 is a match (7 cM) on Ancestry.
His ancestor was named Leonarda Carbone, who died in 1764 in Ortona, Chieti, Abruzzo, Italy. Chieti is near Pescara on the Italian Adriatic Sea coast, just opposite the town of Split, Croatia.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1srfVxhXGYXG5YuD3jbb2wLnBuwzkJpXv/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VKqTeHLGn0VcXMyvwz35_CbDp-qzoEFf/view?usp=sharing (tree in PDF format)

6) L. Tursi-Santiago is a match (6 cM) on Ancestry.
Her ancestor was named Rosa Carbone, born in 1765 in Plati, Reggio Calabria, Italy, next to Sicily.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n_pXCbCRR0Q1zobP3cxEiVa5OkkOH7uV/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p_4COOlG78NV2AcrDMO28S0_Bhz-Ywxe/view?usp=sharing (tree in PDF format)

My father has no matches with Carbone ancestors on MyHeritage and FTDNA.

In conclusion, it is possible that Guglielmo de Monteforte, called Carbone, the owner of the land in Monteforte Irpino, Campania, was from the French Montfort family.

 

© 2007 Молекулярная Генеалогия (МолГен)

Внимание! Все сообщения отражают только мнения их авторов.
Все права на материалы принадлежат их авторам (владельцам) и сетевым изданиям, с которых они взяты.