Haplogroup I-FGC22045, a Balkan branch of I-P109

[abmunteanu]

PART 2

It is obvious that the majority of the men who have taken an Y-STR test (Y-37 or Y-111) are reluctant to take the Big Y test. The price is the biggest reason, and this is caused by the fact that FamilyTreeDNA has almost no competition when it comes to Y-DNA testing, so they are not pressured to lower the price. They did lower the price a few years ago when they put the BAM file (with the detailed results) behind a paywall of 100 USD. It was a good move for the consumers, because you don’t actually need the BAM file to upload the results to YFull, the free VCF file being good enough. And it was a true reduction of the price, which convinced many to order the Big Y test, including myself (until then I was reluctant to upgrade my father’s Y-111 test to Big Y). But now that incentive doesn’t work anymore. The management team at FTDNA doesn’t seem inclined to lower the price further, but it did something else. It promised a free Y haplogroup that is at least halfway to the precise haplogroup offered by the Big Y test. This offer applies not only to all those customers that take the Family Finder (autosomal) test today, but also to those that took it in the past. FTDNA hopes that a portion of these customers will pay for the upgrade to Big Y in order to get their precise haplogroup.

https://blog.familytreedna.com/y-dna-haplogroups-family-finder/

However, from what I’ve seen, there are many men who only bought an Y-STR test, and no Family Finder test, because they bought the autosomal test from another company, for example from Ancestry. So, they don’t benefit from the FTDNA offer of a free semi precise haplogroup, and are stuck with their generic haplogroup. Because of the recent increase in prices for goods, especially for food, many of the Y-STR test takers probably don’t want to spend money for the upgrade to Big Y. Some do have the money available, but they don’t see the advantages of this upgrade. They think the Y-STR matches are enough. What they don’t know is the fact that these Y-STR matches are very unreliable for genealogical research. Since I’ve given the link to this forum thread to all the matches that were contacted by me, I hope some of those that didn’t respond will read this message and maybe change their mind. I will try to explain why the Big Y test is a must have for those really interested in the genealogy of their paternal line.

There are two types of matches when it comes to Y-DNA testing. The Y-STR matches are discovered by the Y-37 or Y-111 tests and the Big Y matches are discovered by the Big Y test. It must be said that the Big Y test also discovers the Y-STR matches and lists them, but the Y-37 and Y-111 tests do not discover the Big Y matches.

1) STR Matches (STR = short tandem repeat) => number of repetitions of DNA sequences at 12, 25, 37, 67, 111 markers
=================
When you take an Y-37 or Y-111 test (or the discontinued Y-12 or Y-67 tests), FTDNA looks only for the very old mutations (SNPs), like I-M253 (or E-M35, etc.) and gives you the haplogroup I-M253 (or E-M35, etc.) if the mutation was found on your Y chromosome. This is a very generic haplogroup, not very useful for genealogical research. Then FTDNA looks at the repetitions of the DNA structure at the 12 , 25 and 37 markers. Based on the number of these repetitions on your Y chromosome and on the Y chromosomes of the other men who have taken an Y-37 or Y-111 test, FTDNA creates the list of STR matches. These matches are related to you, you have a common ancestor with them. But you cannot tell for sure how close you are related to them. You may say that the Y-67 matches are more closely related to you than the Y-12 matches, but this is not always the case. See the explanation of the unreliability of the Y-STR matches below.

2) SNP Matches (SNP = single-nucleotide polymorphism) => mutation M253, P109, FGC22045, etc.
=================
When you take a Big Y test, FTDNA looks for all the mutations on your Y chromosome, old and new. Based on the newest mutations found on your Y chromosome and on the Y chromosomes of the other people who took the Big Y test, FTDNA creates the list of SNP matches, that is the list of Big Y matches. These are your closest relatives on the strict paternal line and the common ancestor lived hundreds of years ago. So, in order to do genealogical research on your strict paternal line (father, grandfather, great-grandfather, etc.) you must take the Big Y test. The SNP matches are very reliable in predicting the closeness of the relationship. The more SNPs (mutations) on the Y chromosome you have in common with another man, the more closely you are related to him. And you can predict the time when the common ancestor lived, based on the newest mutations that you share with another man.

Unreliability of the STR matches in predicting the closeness of the genealogical relationship
===========================
I will give two examples of why the Y-STR tests (Y-37 and Y-111) are not of much value when it comes to judging how close you are related to the matches. Also look at the screenshots linked below.

1.1) Matches that are at the same level, for example Y-12 matches with the same genetic distance (GD), can be closely related (a common ancestor who lived hundreds of years ago) or distantly related (a common ancestor who lived thousands of years ago) and you cannot distinguish between these two situations. The same is true for Y-67, Y-37 and Y-25, without exception. The only Y-STR matches that are definitely closely related are the Y-111 matches, but these are very rare, you get one of these matches only if you are very lucky.

For example, both R. Djukic and D. Radosavljevic are only Y-12 matches (GD = 1) with my father and have Serbia, a Balkan country, as paternal country of origin. But R. Djukic has a haplogroup (I-FGC22054) closely related to my father's haplogroup and the common ancestor lived 400-800 years ago. In contrast, D. Radosavljevic has a haplogroup (I-FTA28277) distantly related to my father's haplogroup and the common ancestor lived many thousands years ago. So, the fact that they are both Y-12 matches is deceptive, and this is why these Y-STR (12, 25, 37, 67) matches are not reliable in predicting the closeness of the genealogical relationship. The Big Y test is the only one that indicates correctly the degree of closeness (Djukic is a Big Y match with my father, whereas D. Radosavlijevic is not). If R. Djukic and D. Radosavljevic had not taken the Big Y test, I could have been inclined to think that they were both equally closely related to my father, which is not the case at all.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RvhpMWIpWiahFXoIlHz5qekFaZd2ujYl/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UaLbHXlEvBPNbVHGkjYHiPispEeWg12N/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19NcsdEE3Be54ljNuR2wY2lMTqwjvVGJq/view?usp=sharing

1.2) There are Big Y matches which are not Y-STR matches. For example there is a Big Y match named V. Erovic who is not a Y-STR match. And he’s not the only one. There is also B. Todorović who is in the same situation. Both Erovic and Todorović have a common ancestor with my father who lived 400-800 years ago, but they don’t appear as Y-STR matches! If they had not taken the Big Y test, I would never have known about them. This speaks volumes about the unreliability of the Y-STR tests when it comes to matches.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PYUOghwUzD_SSmKjOLm7kdtalqL0lPDz/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jyCazDYz-XnMjJ6X2pjwTaRex3Du7w2T/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10eTcnCzQJ0PvaPqmFgoA6mI5xj2o8HNV/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16h1ifrsg3bF8dCVxIMrMhNCRtXveMLYp/view?usp=sharing

These are just some of the problems with Y-STR matches, but the conclusion is that they are not reliable for genealogical research. This is why the Big Y test is necessary, its results are much more reliable than those of the Y-37 or Y-111 tests.

Finally, a word of caution for those that want to buy a Big Y test: Never order the Big Y test when there is a sale! The “sale” is actually a 20 USD reduction in price, which is almost nothing compared to the total cost. But FTDNA has the tendency to rush the completion of the Big Y tests ordered when on sale, because of their big number and limited time to analyze each one. So, these Y-DNA samples are not analyzed thoroughly and whereas the haplogroup discovered by the test is the correct one, there is the risk that there will be no Big Y matches.

[abmunteanu]

This message has two parts.

PART 1

I’ve sent in total 22 messages to Y-12 and Y-25 matches of my father asking about their intention to order the Big Y test, and 6 said they will order it in the near future or even ordered it after I told them the advantages of the Big Y test over their existing Y-STR (Y-12, Y-37, Y-67 or Y-111) test. In all the cases money was not the reason why they didn’t take the Big Y test, but the impression that the Big Y test will not offer much more information than the Y-STR test. I told them that Big Y offers a precise haplogroup shared by hundreds of men, whereas the Y-STR test offers a generic haplogroup (I-M253), shared by tens of millions of men, so it is obvious that the precise haplogroup has much more genealogical relevance than the generic haplogroup. I also told them about the Big Y matches, which are the men most closely related on the strict paternal line, whereas the Y-STR matches are unreliable when judging the closeness of the relationship. See the updated matches map below:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1tAy-Hp70_oDeBaA0jJKE1W2flO8iS38&usp=sharing

While waiting for the results, let’s go back to the genealogical speculation. In the first message from page 4 of this thread, I spoke about Guglielmo de Monteforte, nicknamed Carbone, mentioned on the site of the Monteforte Irpino commune in Italy. I said then that I didn’t find any document mentioning him on the internet. But then I searched better and this time I found the confirmation, from a notarial deed, that this man really existed. He was a vassal of Ruggero din Sanseverino, also known as (a.k.a) Ruggero I Sanseverino.

---------------------
{automatic translation from Italian}
There is little information about the exercise of noble prerogatives, many of which concern the castle of Montoro (Avellino), which he [Ruggero di Sanseverino] owned since at least 1097. His presence at an assembly, held in 1109, during which the lord of Monteforte, Guglielmo Carbone, swore loyalty to Roberto, Ruggero's stepson, who invested him with the lands granted to him, located near San Severino, Lauro and Forino. He also presided over the drafting of a notarial deed, with which he exchanged a building located in Salerno with some lands of Montoro, ceded to the monastery of Cava (1112). He is also mentioned in a deed from 1116, with which he granted land, located near the castle, to a local notary.

https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/ruggero-i-sanseverino_(Dizionario-Biografico)/

He [Ruggero di Sanseverino] inherited from his father the title of Count of Rota and Lord of San Severino and other fiefdoms. Little information regarding his government is affiliated to the castle of Montoro, which he owned since at least 1097. He participated in an investiture assembly in 1109, during which the lord of Monteforte, Guglielmo Carbone, swore loyalty to Roberto, stepson of Ruggero. Guglielmo was invested with the lands located near San Severino, Lauro and Forino.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruggero_I_Sanseverino
----------------

Guglielmo de Monteforte, a.k.a. Guglielmo Carbone, was the lord [owner] of Monteforte Irpino in 1109. Guglielmo is the Italian version of the French name Guillaume, translated in English as William. He was a Norman, like his suzerain (overlord) Ruggero di Sanseverino. But it seems that with the passing of time, the owners of the Monteforte castle gave up on emphasizing their Norman origin, wanting to be recognized as local rulers, but not of foreign origin.

-----------------
The charters of Montevergine offer a very interesting example, that of the lords of Monteforte [Irpino]. [Léon-Robert] Ménager, had already reported the cases of Richard, who in 1102 recalls the Norman origin of his father, Rao [Rolf, Rollo], and of Richard's son, Guillaume qui dicitur Carbone [William, who is called Carbone], who in turn explains the Norman origin of his father, in 1112. What was not remarkable in Ménager's research and that can be useful, however, to note here, is that this type of information does not appear in the following testimonies: in 1138 and 1139, the same Guillaume [Guglielmo] Carbone defined his father Richard exclusively as lord of the castle of Monteforte, and in 1153 his grandson, also named Guillaume, goes so far as to reserve for himself the title of lord of the castle of Monteforte and Furino and only recalls the first name of his father Richard, [without the ethnicity]. They insist on the continuity of castle ownership, more than on the memory of the Norman origin of the family. In fact, around the 1140s, the need to present oneself as Norman seemed less essential, even for those who in the charters of previous years had recalled the Norman origin of their fathers, like Guillaume Carbone.

Rosa Canosa
Discours ethniques et pratiques du pouvoir des Normands d'Italie : sources narratives et documentaires (XIe -XIIe siècles)
https://www.academia.edu/29023259/Discours_ethniques_et_pratiques_du_pouvoir_des_Normands_dItalie_sources_narratives_et_documentaires_Xi_e_Xii_e_si%C3%A8cles_
-------------------

Was Guglielmo Carbone a member of the Montfort family, who gave his name to the Monteforte commune, where he owned the land? It cannot be said for sure, but it’s plausible that members of the Montfort families from France participated to the conquest of southern Italy and Sicily by the Normans. Guglielmo Carbone appears in another document, 30 years later, in 1139.

------------------
{automatic translation from Italian}
The Infornata mill is an ancient water mill in Avellino [Campania], attested as early as the 12th century along the banks of the Fenestrelle-Rigatore. Its existence, with the name of the “De Capu” mill, is attested in a document from 1139, with which the Norman Guglielmo Carbone, feudal lord of Monteforte, ceded half of it to the church of San Leonardo outside Avellino, dependent on the abbey of the Santissima Trinità of Cava de' Tirreni, while the other half belonged to the abbey of Montevergine.

{original text in Latin}
"Ego Guilelmus,qui me vocor Carbone, et fil[ius] dom[ni] Riccardi qui fuit dom[inus] castello Monteforte cum consensu dom. Goffridi fil[io] meo offero Mon. S. Leonardi a foras civit Avellini medietatem in molino quod vocatur De Capu cum integra medietate de mole et pecze et ferraturia et de palate et in partate et in aquiductis suis".

{automatic translation from Latin}
"I, William, who calls myself Carbone, and the son of Sir Richard, who was lord of the castle of Monteforte, with the consent of my son, Sir Geoffrey, offer to Mon[signor] S. Leonardi from outside the town of Avellino half of the mill called De Capu with the whole half of the bulk and the fish and the ironwork and of the palate and in the region and in its aqueducts.”
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulino_dell%27Infornata
--------------------

[abmunteanu]

PART 2

All genealogic speculation must be verified using genetic genealogy. Does my father have matches with ancestors named Carbone? It turns out that yes.

Let’s start with a search for the Carbone surname in the trees of my father’s matches from Ancestry.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HlTg4QTVV0odr5_1d3LLTn2JURiQoXd7/view?usp=sharing

1) S. Weckesser Pickett is a match on Ancestry (9 cM), but also on 23andMe (12 cM).
She has an ancestor named Giuseppe Carbone born in 1828 in Vicari, near Palermo, Sicily. His parents were named Giuseppe Carbone and Adriana Salerno, both born in Italy, in an unspecified place. Judging by the Salerno surname of the wife, they could have been born near Salerno in Campania. This may be another coincidence, or not. Gervase of Tilbury was in Salerno when he was visited by his relative Philip of Salisbury and invited him to his villa in Nola (page 579 of Otia Imperialia). Salerno is close (34 km) to Monteforte Irpino, where Guglielmo Carbone lived.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ravabisa79WbNuHHcJomcvk44wmLh-ut/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nArnqJhkl2D_2BY74m_q8YjbGGfMPYsS/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_H-fE4HoX96yMNvh-ZaPErZ03wmyhl4z/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k3LcCbT1Q72kQRz8RhDLo8XGF_shoNvz/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ngVy7wjreya0bdpaiLpFkZU5OzMTH2Gm/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hNvT99rOVr-Dg-ngkGGpdbPPqTu5n46k/view?usp=sharing (tree in PDF format)

2) A. Parfait is a match (10 cM) on Ancestry.
She has a private tree, so her ancestor named Carbone cannot be viewed. According to her ethnicity estimate, she doesn't have Balkan or East European DNA.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QHfnA7dFWqnZmiy0uVCMcxROm49H924E/view?usp=sharing

3) M.C is a match (7 cM) on Ancestry.
He has a private tree, so his ancestor named Carbone cannot be viewed. According to his ethnicity estimate, his DNA is half Italian and half East European.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iDsMrT91pkmf2VyixltocXRmLAHIPX3h/view?usp=sharing

Let’s continue with a search for the Carbone surname in the trees of my matches from Ancestry. Of course, since they are my matches, they can be related to my father or not. As you can see, S. Weckesser Pickett and A. Parfait are also matches with me, so the shared DNA was inherited from my father. The remaining three matches are not matches with my father, but they can very much be. Let me explain. Initially the matches’ list given by Ancestry included the persons with whom you shared 6 cM of DNA and more. But 2-3 years ago, Ancestry decided that the list was too big, so the matches with whom you shared 6 or 7 cM were to be deleted automatically. The exception were the matches with whom you exchanged messages or the matches that were added to a group. These would not be deleted by Ancestry. Both me and my father had probably 10000 6-7 cm matches. I managed to save maybe 1000 of these matches for my father and 2000 for me. So, there are saved matches in my list who are not present in my father’s list, but are in fact related to him. These may be the case with the matches with Carbone ancestors mentioned below, because all three share 6 or 7 cM of DNA with me.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SyojrDTvKObBaHNAP0O-nrIoc7K-I8ZJ/view?usp=sharing

4) M. Harrington is a match (7 cM) on Ancestry.
Her ancestor was named Nunzio Carbone, who died in 1863 in Tricarico, Matera, Basilicata, Italy.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CvGVgLwyeXs_SsqxD81IJ1PmTdKvhDk5/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ot4N9ssYzFiL60oIthmtlyN7n73MoJt9/view?usp=sharing (tree in PDF format)

5) tmelch66 is a match (7 cM) on Ancestry.
His ancestor was named Leonarda Carbone, who died in 1764 in Ortona, Chieti, Abruzzo, Italy. Chieti is near Pescara on the Italian Adriatic Sea coast, just opposite the town of Split, Croatia.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1srfVxhXGYXG5YuD3jbb2wLnBuwzkJpXv/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VKqTeHLGn0VcXMyvwz35_CbDp-qzoEFf/view?usp=sharing (tree in PDF format)

6) L. Tursi-Santiago is a match (6 cM) on Ancestry.
Her ancestor was named Rosa Carbone, born in 1765 in Plati, Reggio Calabria, Italy, next to Sicily.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n_pXCbCRR0Q1zobP3cxEiVa5OkkOH7uV/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p_4COOlG78NV2AcrDMO28S0_Bhz-Ywxe/view?usp=sharing (tree in PDF format)

My father has no matches with Carbone ancestors on MyHeritage and FTDNA.

In conclusion, it is possible that Guglielmo de Monteforte, called Carbone, the owner of the land in Monteforte Irpino, Campania, was from the French Montfort family.

[abmunteanu]

This is a three part message.


PART 1

I spoke in my previous message about the fact that my father has on Ancestry an autosomal match named M.C., who has the name Carbone in his tree. I asked the manager of the account to tell me the place of birth of the earliest person named Carbone from the tree. She told me that it is the town of Mirabella Eclano in the province of Avellino, Campania. The distance beteen this town and Monteforte Irpino, where Guglielmo Carbone lived, is 40 km.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirabella_Eclano

My father has many matches with Italian ancestors. A few months ago I made a map with the birth places and surnames of these ancestors. I have added to the map only the ancestors of the Ancestry matches that share with my father more than 8 cM. I also added the ancestors of a few matches who share 6 or 7 cM, but there are many more matches who share 6-7 cM on Ancestry and were not added to the map. There are also many matches on MyHeritage, 23andMe and FTDNA. I may add the ancestors of these matches in the future. The address of the map is below:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1ehkGcADHkOlLGMgpcQbcC5dRxbzAlsg&usp=sharing

The map can be zoomed in and out. By clicking on a marker a little panel will appear. The title of the marker is the name of the place. The description of the marker contains first the name of the match and the number of cM shared with my father. Then in parentheses are mentioned the surnames of the ancestors who were born in that place. The red markers are for matches that share more than 12 cM of DNA with my father.

Most of the matches have ancestors in southern Italy and Sicily, exactly the lands controlled by the Normans. An interesting fact is that very close (4 km) to Mirabella Eclano is the town of Fontanarosa. In this town were born the ancestors of a 10 cM match with the username “blessedhidalgos” (real name Greco). Her tree contains only Italians and her ethnicity estimate is 89% Italian. Her ancestors from Fonatanrosa were named: Penta, Pasquariello, Di Talia, Baldassare and, coincidence or not, Inglese. The name Inglese means “Englishman” in Italian. It is possible that this name is linked to the presence of Gervase of Tilbury and other members of his English family in Avellino, Campania. See the screenshots below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sY-hrL9Yd6AgnHMj-qDHZ9wifEj43jsT/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IsaZhG4BVHqV8ihbWTTqc3U7_V3HqHiq/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dgDnSLUOJowio9xLe7bGoMWNXW48wdR1/view?usp=sharing (tree)

Another interesting fact is related to an Y-12 match on FTDNA named T. Barnard. His father’s name is Scoppettuolo and his earliest known paternal ancestor is from Grottaminarda, a town very close (7 km) to Mirabella Eclano.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nWI0RXFwbhrrhPoFvCqR9DbezUQqlsRn/view?usp=sharing

T. Barnard has a tree on FTDNA and I checked to see if my father has Ancestry matches that have ancestors with the same surnames as Barnard’s ancestors. One of these matches is the above mentioned M.C. He has in his tree the names Cataruozzolo, Del Grosso and Abbruzzese, also present in Barnard’s tree. Barnard’s Italian ancestors are all from Grottaminarda, with one exception, an ancestor named Gallo from the town of Mirabella Eclano, where the Carbone ancestor of M.C. lived. In Italian the word “gallo” may mean “rooster” (male chicken) or “Gaul” (inhabitant of Gaul, the ancient name of the territory of France). A Norman settler in medieval Italy was sometimes called a Gallo [French], because he came from France. So, the Gallo family from Mirabella Eclano could be of Norman origin.

This Gallo name could be a link between the Normans from the Avellino, Campania region and those from the Adriatic Sea coast, where Ragusa [Dubrovnik], Zadar and Split are located.

In my message from 12 January (on page 4 of the thread) I spoke about the Cerne men from Ragusa who were the cousins of Gervase the count. Apparently, the Cerne family was later named the Galelli (Gallo) family, which is normal if they were Normans and spoke French. Gallelli/Galelli is the plural form of Gallo.

-----------------------
{automatic translation from Croatian}
GALELLI (Gallo), noble family in Zadar. The form of the surname Galelli occurs more often, and some members are written with both forms, which are recorded in the documents: de Galeli, Galelis, Galellis, Galello, Galetus, Galio, Gallelli, Gallelis, Gallelli, Gallellis, Gallello, Gallis, Gallus. [...]The Galelli family appears in the 13th century. It probably belongs to Vito de Cerne Galellus, examiner in 1268. Towards the end of the 13th century, the personal name Galellus is recorded in the Zadar noble family Mergya, which is connected with the Galelli family. The son of Črna [Cerne] de Mergya Gallelus (Gallo, Gallus Cerne de Mergia) was in 1294 among the people of Zadar who were close to making peace between George I, Prince of Bribir from the Šubić tribe, and the Republic of Venice. In the lists of nobility and noble houses in Zadar in 1283, Madije (Madius de Galli, Gallellis) is mentioned.[...] His contemporary and probably brother Mihovil (Michael de Cerna Galellus and Galellus de Cerna) was also an examiner in 1303/1304; he died before 1313 when his successors are mentioned. Vid (Vito Galelli) was a judge-examiner in 1317 and a judge in 1333, and in 1345 he owned property in the area of ​​Obrovac [town near Zadar, Croatia]. [...] Nikola, son of Madija, was several times between 1328 and 1344 a judge, examiner and the procurator of the Zadar commune in 1343. [...]. In 1341, Benedict of the late Nicholas was a judge-examiner, and Zanin (Ivan, Zaninus Galellus formerly Cose de Prode), rector in 1362, is probably the same as Ivan (de Gallo), who between 1378 and 1393 was a landowner in Zadar and Jošani. [...] Benedikt of the late Nikola [...] had properties in Visočani and in the Galova village (Galova sela, Galovac) and salt pans on Pag. He shared possessions with his brother Madi (Magiolus, Maçol de Galelli, Gallo), who is mentioned since 1371.[...] In 1386, his son Kolan was the deputy of the Korčula prince Filip Jurjević, and in 1405 he was elected to the Privy Council of Zadar. Banjol (Bagnolus de Gallo) was a judge-examiner in 1371 [...].

Croatian Biographical Lexicon
https://hbl.lzmk.hr/clanak/galelli
-------------------------

The names Cerne (“Michael de Cerne”) and Carbone (“Micha de Carbone”) appear in 1199 in a document from Zadar (Codex Diplomaticus Regni Croatiae, Dalmatiae et Slavoniae, vol. 2, pp. 326-328). More interesting, the names Cerne and Carbone appear linked in the person of Cerne Carbone (Cerne de Carbono, Cerne Carbonis) in documents also from Zadar (Codex Diplomaticus Regni Croatiae, Dalmatiae et Slavoniae vol. 3, pp. 173, 301, 385, 390 and vol. 4 pp. 35, 75, 76). The same Cerne Carbonis appears later in the town of Trogir, near Split, at almost half distance between Zadar and Ragusa/Dubrovnik (CDRCDS vol.4 pp. 146, 154). Then his son (”Damiano filio Cerne de Carbone”) appears in a document from Zadar in 1254 (CDRCDS vol.4 p. 573).

We also have the link between the Cerne and Carbone families provided by the ownership of salt pans on the island of Pag. On this island is the town of Novalja, which could be the origin of the name Novljani brotherhood from the Drobnjak tribe (I wrote about this in my message from 24 February on page 5 of the thread). Benedikt Galelli/Gallo owned salt pans around the year 1400 on the island of Pag, as was mentioned above in the article from the Croatian biographical lexicon. But Cerne Carbone owned salt pans on the island of Pag almost 200 years earlier. Maybe the initial name of the family was Carbone and was later changed to Galelli/Gallo.

-------------------
{automatic translation from Latin}
Zadar, 28 September 1237
For I, Cerne Carbonis (confess) by this present writing, that for the love and affection I have for you (Ra)douana, the wife of the late Johannes Ragni, I give you six of my salt pans placed on the island of Pag at Muruilla in the valley next to the salt flats of the Lord (S)auçadeo, that there were salt from Dessidrugus, with all its length (and) breadth, with its borders and appurtenances under the earth, as well as (above) the earth, so that in the same way as before it is permissible for you and your heirs to have the said salt(s), to possess perpetually with full virtue and power to send, to give, to bestow, to indicate for the soul and to do all your will, without any obstacles or contradictions to you.

Codex Diplomaticus Regni Croatiae, Dalmatiae et Slavoniae vol. 4, p. 35)
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[abmunteanu]

PART 2

There was also a Gallo family in Ragusa/Dubrovnik, maybe originating from the Zadar family with the same name. It was a branch of the Mence/Menze family. Another branch was named Chiachio, a surname almost identical with Chiacchio, a noble Italian family from Frattamaggiore, Campania, close to Naples and Nola (20 km).

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{automatic translation from Croatian}
Menčetić (Mence, Mençe, Menze, Mentius), Croatian noble family from Dubrovnik. It is mentioned in the sources from the 13th century, when two family branches already existed - descendants of Marin de Mença and descendants of the brothers Lampredi (recorded in 1266), Dimitrije (1246–86) and Marko (1266–81). According to the nickname of Mark's son Lovra (1280–1324), one branch of the family was called Gallo, while according to the nickname of the second son Nikola (1281–1304), the other branch of the family was called Presliça. Some descendants of Marino Lampredijev (1280–1319) bore the nickname Chiachio. From his great-grandson Vlaho (1345–74) comes the branch with the nickname Vlahovići. From the earliest mention, Menčetići were part of the city's most respected political and economic elite. Dimitri's descendants traded in Venice, and Lompre de Gallo (1319–44) and Domagna Nikolin Markov (1313–58) in Serbia and Bosnia.
https://www.enciklopedija.hr/clanak/mencetic

The House of Menze or Menčetić (Italian: Mençe, Menze) was a noble family of the Republic of Ragusa in what is today known as Croatia.[...] The family was said to come from Rome.
The family was ranked 9th of the 10 largest Ragusan houses. The Menze inter-married mostly with the women from the Bona and Gondola family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%C4%8Deti%C4%87

[Chiacchio] : Family from the Neapolitan area of ancient and noble tradition, which has spread over the centuries in various regions of Italy and other countries, an important nucleus has been found in Brazil since the 19th century. This family, ascribed to the nobility in Frattamaggiore, where the noble chapel exists, participated in the history of Naples and its events during the past, contributing significantly to the nobility and institutional roles of the city itself, made by the kings who reigned in the Duchy of Naples.
https://www.heraldrysinstitute.com/lang/en/cognomi/Chiacchio/idc/21493/
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Now let’s go back to the article about the Galelli/Gallo family from the Croatian Biographical Lexicon. In it is says that in 1386 Kolan Gallo was the deputy of the Korčula prince Filip Jurjević. Korčula is an island close to the Adriatic sea coast, south of the island of Pag, so closer to Ragusa/Dubrovnik. I spoke in my first message of this thread about A. Jurjević, who has the I-FT193827 haplogroup, a branch of I-FGC22061, and who is an Y-12 and Big Y match with my father. Jurjević’s father is from Zadar and in his family there is the story of descendance from the Zorzi/Giorgi family, also present in Ragusa/Dubrovnik.

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The Zorzi or Giorgi was a noble family of Venetian origin. They thrived in the Late Middle Ages, especially in the remnants of the Latin Empire in Greece, where they controlled the Margraviate of Bodonitsa and through marriage the Duchy of Athens until the Ottoman conquest. Doge Marino Zorzi had at least one brother. His name was Pietro Zorzi and his descendants changed their surname to Zazzera (sometimes deformed into Zazzara) and spread to various parts of Italy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorzi

The Giorgi or Zorzi were a noble family of the Republic of Venice and the Republic of Ragusa. [...] The island of Curzola has been a fiefdom of the family since 1254. [...] Over the centuries, the Giorgi were divided into several branches in Italy and abroad, merging with other noble families of Dubrovnik and continental Europe. A branch of the family joined its name and arms to those of the Bona family, creating a new branch as Giorgi-Bona.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgi_family

In the 12th century Korčula was conquered by a Venetian nobleman, Pepone Zorzi, and incorporated briefly into the Republic of Venice. Around this time, the local Korčula rulers began to exercise diplomacy and legislate a town charter to secure the independence of the island, particularly with regard to internal affairs, given its powerful neighbors. The brothers of Stephen Nemanja, Miroslav and Stracimir, launched an attack on the island on 10 August 1184, raiding its fertile western part. The island's inhabitants called for help from the Republic of Ragusa (Dubrovnik), which in turn captured all of Stracimir's galleys. [...] In 1221, Pope Honorius III gave the island to the Princes of Krka (the Šubićs). During the 13th century the hereditary Counts of Korčula were loosely governed in turn by the Hungarian crown and by the Republic of Genoa, and also enjoyed a brief period of independence; but, in 1255, Marsilio Zorzi conquered the island's capital and razed or damaged some of its churches in the process, forcing the Counts to return to Venetian suzerainty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kor%C4%8Dula#Middle_Ages
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About the name Zazzera/Zazzara, mentioned as being borne by a branch of the Zorzi family, it is interesting that my father has a 21 cM match on MyHeritage named G.M. Zazzarino. The Zazzarino line is from Rapone in the province of Potenza, region of Basilicata, Italy. You can see on the map with Italian matches that close to this town (30 km) are Barile and Avigliano, places where lived the ancestors of some Ancestry matches who share with my father 16-21 cM of DNA. So, the genealogical relationship on the Zazzarino line is possible. However, G.M’s maternal grandfather named Hochdorfer has Transylvanian Saxon ancestors who lived in Rumania and Hungary, so the genealogical relationship could be on the Hochdorfer line. See the screenshot with her tree below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W1UlVHFhNYmXLE6kYH5ex8ru8Erd8Hme/view?usp=sharing

[abmunteanu]

PART 3

The Zorzi/Giorgi family was present at first on the island of Korčula and then in Zadar. The Gallo family was also present in Korčula and Zadar. It is possible that a man from the Gallo family (for example Kolan Gallo) married into the Zorzi/Giorgi family and this is how the I-FGC22061 haplogroup of Norman origin was passed to a branch of the Zorzi/Giorgi family.

The name Banjol (Bagnolus de Gallo), mentioned in 1373, is intriguing. Bagnol is a name of Italian or French origin.

In Italy there are multiple localities named Bagnolo. One that is interesting is Bagnolo, a village in the commune of Santa Fiora in the province of Grosseto. In the message posted on 21 October 2023 (page 2 of the thread) I spoke about the town of Batignano, located in the same province of Grosetto, that can be the origin of the name Batigna from Batigna Drobognago, the first member of the Drobnjak tribe mentioned in medieval documents. Batignano was owned by the Aldobrandeschi family [Sovana branch], later linked to the Montfort family by the marriage of Margherita Aldobrandeschi with Guy de Montfort, count of Nola. The Aldobrandeschi family also owned Santa Fiora. The distance between Bagnolo and Batignano is 30 km. See the screenshot from Yandex Maps below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hyL7UXYwxdOpFOfKH0gs4zpkdSxhjANK/view?usp=sharing

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{automatic translation from Italian}
Historical dominion of the Aldobrandeschi counts, it [Santa Fiora] was the seat of the county assigned in 1274 to Ildebrandino [Aldobrandeschi], son of Bonifacio, when the Aldobrandeschi territory was divided into the two branches of Santa Fiora and Sovana [...].
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fiora#Storia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagnolo,_Santa_Fiora
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In France there are multiple localities named Bagnols or Bagnoles.

There is for example Bagnoles-de-l'Orne in Normandy, said to be linked to the legend of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table.

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{automatic translation from French}
Arthurian legends are another facet of this place, since Bagnoles[-de-l'Orne] and its surroundings would have served as a prototype for the country of Lancelot du Lac de Chrétien de Troyes who would have stayed at the court of Eleanor of Aquitaine in her castle of Domfront.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagnoles-de-l%27Orne#Histoire
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Another one that is interesting is Bagnols-sur-Cèze, located 60 km from Arles, where Gervase of Tilbury was married and lived for a period of time. The surprising part is that right next to Bagnols-sur-Cèze is the village of Saint-Gervais (Gervais being the French version of the name Gervase). See the screenshots from Yandex Maps below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/116jpFvShxvPMxVNtBxn1tpOHNF8d_7AM/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G0Lk-UelpZdd3grXLQDtQyCe4l_4O8qc/view?usp=sharing

Again, this is speculation, and can be verified only by DNA testing. Two weeks ago I convinced T. Barnard (Scoppettuolo) to order the Big Y test, because I think he has a Norman haplogroup which could be closely related to I-FGC22045.