АвторТема: Chinese communities in 12-1300's Moscow and Novgorod.  (Прочитано 2446 раз)

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Chinese communities in 12-1300's Moscow and Novgorod.
« : 16 Январь 2012, 15:20:05 »
Hi,

i have lately been reading this book, by John Man:
http://www.amazon.com/Genghis-Khan-Life-Death-Resurrection/dp/0312366248

and i came across something interesting on page 316:

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for 150 years after Genghis's death, his scattered descendants linked east and west, sharing in the free flow of trade, diplomats and experts. In the 1280s a Chinese Nestorian monk, Rabban bar sauma, visited the pope, and saw the king of England in Gascony. The pope, in response, sent several monks to Mongolia and China. Chinese engineers supervised irrigation projects in Iraq. There were Chinese communities in Novgorod and Moscow, Chinese merchants in Cambodia

I have tried to get in contact with the author via e-mail, but he has yet to reply to me, so for now i have no other sources or information on this subject, so therefore i wonder if anyone on this forum might have some additional information that is in Russian?


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Re: Chinese communities in 12-1300's Moscow and Novgorod.
« Ответ #1 : 16 Январь 2012, 15:23:43 »
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There were Chinese communities in Novgorod and Moscow

As far as i know, these "Chinese communities" in medieval Russia existed only in John Man's creative  imagination. ;D

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Re: Chinese communities in 12-1300's Moscow and Novgorod.
« Ответ #2 : 16 Январь 2012, 15:28:47 »
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There were Chinese communities in Novgorod and Moscow

As far as i know, these "Chinese communities" in medieval Russia existed only in John Man's creative  imagination. ;D

Since he is a serious historian i doubt it, but i will try to locate and e-mail some other historians and see if they know what he is referring to?

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Re: Chinese communities in 12-1300's Moscow and Novgorod.
« Ответ #3 : 16 Январь 2012, 15:35:56 »
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There were Chinese communities in Novgorod and Moscow

As far as i know, these "Chinese communities" in medieval Russia existed only in John Man's creative  imagination. ;D

Since he is a serious historian i doubt it, but i will try to locate and e-mail some other historians and see if they know what he is referring to?

I am a serious historian, too. I've been researching Russian medieval history since i was 12  ;D .

That means for 21 years.

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Re: Chinese communities in 12-1300's Moscow and Novgorod.
« Ответ #4 : 16 Январь 2012, 15:48:43 »
Still, i can expalin you how mythical "medieval Chineese communities" in medieval Russian town came into being.
In Moscow, there is a Kitay-gorod (Russian: Китай-город; from old Russian "kita" (Russian: Кита), wall, and "Kitok" (Russian: Киток), name of square,– in modern Russian sounds like China town), earlier also known as Great Posad (Russian: Великий Посад), is a business district within Moscow, Russia, encircled by mostly-reconstructed medieval walls

Despite of its homonymy with Chinatown, Kitay-gorod had nothing to do with Chineese community.

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The etymology of the name is unclear. Gorod is the Russian for town, whereas Kitay is the Russian for China (cf. Cathay). Accordingly, the popular translation might be Chinatown. However, scholars universally agree that the name originally had nothing to do with Kitay  as in "China", as there has never been significant Chinese presence in  this district of Moscow. The word is from whale traders (Kit, Russian for whale).
Kita (pl. kity) is a somewhat obsolete word for "plait"  or "thing made by braiding" – for example, a 17th-century Russian  source informed readers that U shapok janychary imeli kity, meaning "The Janissaries had braids hanging from their caps." On the basis of this, Robert Wallace asserts in The Rise of Russia (New York: Time-Life, 1967) that the term relates to a rough-hewn defensive bulwark made from woven wicker baskets filled with earth or rock – and thus Kitay-gorod aims at something like "Basketville". On the other hand, some scholars tend to derive Kitay from an old word for the wooden stakes used in construction of the quarter's walls[citation needed]; if one liberally interprets "stakes" as "wythes" or "wickets," this agrees quite closely with Wallace's signification.



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Re: Chinese communities in 12-1300's Moscow and Novgorod.
« Ответ #5 : 17 Январь 2012, 01:02:54 »
ok, i got a reply from one scholar on the subject, he has himself written several books on the period, i will quote his e-mail reply:

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Thank you for the very interesting question, but I am afraid that I cannot answer it.  I am aware of Rabban bar Sauma and of the Chinese in Iraq, but I cannot speak to Novgorod or Cambodia.

150 years after Genghis Khan's death would be at the time of the fall of the Yuan Dynasty in 1368.  I certainly would not be surprised to find Chinese in Cambodia at this time since the Mongols fought several campaigns in the area (particularly Thailand and Burma) and had token submission from several southeast Asian kingdoms.  But I do not know the specifics of the Chinese presence.

Similarly for Novgorod, it seems possible, but I do not know anything about it.  Several thousand "Russians" (actually Ossetians and Kipchaks plus a few other groups) had been taken to China during the reign of Khubilai Khan.  Also a large number of Saxons were brought to Mongol territory during the reign of Ogodei Khan, but I do not know of Chinese going in the other direction.  Relations between the Chinese part of the Mongols and the Mongols in Russia deteriorated rather quickly, and I think that the flow of people would have been small.   (By contrast the flow continued between China and Iran/Iraq until the death of Kubilai Khan.)

You might check to see if Marco Polo mentions Cambodia.  He sailed around south Asia from China to Iran, and the ship stopped at a number of ports.  He gave some information on the inland areas as well.  I do not recall anything relevant, but there might be something.

Sorry I could not be of any more specific help. 

Best of luck with this search.

Jack Weatherford

i will try e-mailing others also.

 

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