Карельская ветвь I1

[Sari H]

Maxim0605, no I am not familiar with that project. I sure go and look it!   About White Sea Karelian project I try to collect there some families also from Finland, because it's been written into history books that some families came to Karelia from Finland, like Pertujev, Malejev etc.  I try to find that truth from these DNA tests. I am waiting more test from Karelia from Malejev and also Pertujev families.

About this I DNA in Sudnozero - Mr Lauri Koskinen, Finland DNA project admin, think that Lesonen I DNA comes from Norway. What You think about this hypothesis?

[Maxim0605]

Maxim0605, no I am not familiar with that project. I sure go and look it!   About White Sea Karelian project I try to collect there some families also from Finland, because it's been written into history books that some families came to Karelia from Finland, like Pertujev, Malejev etc.  I try to find that truth from these DNA tests. I am waiting more test from Karelia from Malejev and also Pertujev families.

About this I DNA in Sudnozero - Mr Lauri Koskinen, Finland DNA project admin, think that Lesonen I DNA comes from Norway. What You think about this hypothesis?

is a bold hypothesis. and the nearest "relatives" in Lesonen I1d there in Norway? is a bold hypothesis. and the nearest "relatives" in Lesonen I1d there in Norway?
Wait for the Abbot Busoni, he also has a version of the origin of the Karelian branch I1d.

[Sari H]

Yes, there is NOT at all nearest relatives from Norway. No matches from there at all! That's why I am guite skeptik about this hypothesis.  I will wait Abbot Busoni I am so interested in to hear his version of the origin. We have counted that those I Y-DNA  Lesonen have TMRCA about 1530's. century.

[Sari H]

do you know about project North Dvina DNA? This project is (and I think there will be more) are close to the Finns and Karelians haplotypes Russians.

This is VERY interesting project!  I see that there is more I Y DNA in the area.

[Аббат Бузони]

Greetings, Sari H.

1. I want to ask you to add haplotype 208142 Lesonen to project RussiaDNA.   

2. In the message 35 you observe a tree part haplogroup I1. Novoselov, Beliaeff and Lesonen's form a unique branch. At all these people identical unusual mutations 19=14, 392=13.

3. I doubt that the Karelian branch has come from Norway. My opinion that is descendants of the mesolytic population of Scandinavia.

[Sari H]

Hello Abbot! I added 2 test to RussiaDNA. Other's results are coming.

About those unusual mutations, have you the timeline when those mutations have born and where?

Your theory of  decending from mesolytic population sounds interesting! Do you think that these lived in White Sea Karelia area at mesolythic time?  Its known that Russian archeologist (S.I. Kotskurkina) have found OLDEST proves about human population from the side of the Sudnozero road (between Ponga guba and Sudnozero) in WSKarelia! Those are small silica pieces and those are from year 7000 bc. This tell's us that there must been human population even then!

[Sari H]

About this more. Am I understod right that Lesonen_001 is older than 002 and 003? What KIT number is Lesonen_001? And also 2 other?

I have been wondering about that DYS 444 in I Lesonen. It mutate very fast. KIT 182946 = 14, KIT 208142 & 194756 = 13 and KIT 182948 = 12.  I havent figure out why this goes like this. Is KIT182946 older than KIT182948?  I cannot find Novoselov from FTDNA?

[Sari H]

Have You seen this?
http://www.sukujutut.fi/dna/index.htm take: I1 (päivitetty 24.12.2011) link.

[Аббат Бузони]

Hello Abbot! I added 2 test to RussiaDNA. Other's results are coming.

Thanks big. It is important.

About those unusual mutations, have you the timeline when those mutations have born and where?

When and where there were these mutations to tell difficult. But as they are revealed only at people with the Karelian origin probably they have arisen in Kareliya.

Your theory of  decending from mesolytic population sounds interesting! Do you think that these lived in White Sea Karelia area at mesolythic time?  Its known that Russian archeologist (S.I. Kotskurkina) have found OLDEST proves about human population from the side of the Sudnozero road (between Ponga guba and Sudnozero) in WSKarelia! Those are small silica pieces and those are from year 7000 bc. This tell's us that there must been human population even then!

I think that such clade as I1d-karelian, I1d3a, I1d4 concern descendants of carriers Ahrensburg culture. They have got on territory of Scandinavia and participated in addition of such people, as finns, karelians and saami.

[Аббат Бузони]

About this more. Am I understod right that Lesonen_001 is older than 002 and 003? What KIT number is Lesonen_001? And also 2 other?

A bit later I will tell who from them who, now in Udmurtiya and I don't have data.

The program considers that Lesonen_002 and Lesonen_003 is more close to each other. Lesonen_001 will defend from them slightly further, it is possible their ancestor with Lesonen_002 and Lesonen_003 lived later.

I cannot find Novoselov from FTDNA?

I1d: Karelian branch L22+ 19=14, 392=13

199056      Novoselov

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/russiadna/default.aspx?section=yresults

[Аббат Бузони]

Have You seen this?
http://www.sukujutut.fi/dna/index.htm take: I1 (päivitetty 24.12.2011) link.

Thanks. The interesting link.

[Sari H]

Thank You so much Abbot for these infos. I try to get some funding to DNA test's so we can test more from WSKarelia area living families (Y-DNA). It seems now that I might get funds.

Thanks, now I found Novoselov. Have You been contacted to him, where did his ancestors lived? 

I have been using one counter to get some guide timeline for I Lesonen TMRCA. Here is the photo of that. Those are years. Should be counted backwards from the testperson's birth year. Average testperson's birht years are between 1950-60 in I Lesonen.

[Sari H]

When and where there were these mutations to tell difficult. But as they are revealed only at people with the Karelian origin probably they have arisen in Kareliya.

This make's sense, of course it's that way. I hope so much we get more Karelian to participate this so then it will be guite sure. Mr Koskinen asked if we could consider WTY test, but it's so expencive so we might pass it. Do you think we need to take more SNP etc. test from these I Lesonen?  I can pay some test by myself from Matvej Lesonen, who is my ancestor.

Here is the link of that counter I used. http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html?mode=ftdna_mode

[Sari H]

I have tested this calcultator with genealogy data and found out that you should add x 1,2 these years. 2 different mode's I have used in these.

[Аббат Бузони]

Thanks, now I found Novoselov. Have You been contacted to him, where did his ancestors lived? 

Here that he writes:

Мои предки по отцовской линии пришли в Сибирь сразу же после завоевания ее Ермаком. Скорее всего из Пермского края, как все тогда. А заселение Пермского края кажется происходило из Устюга. Обосновались под Тобольском в деревне Новоселова. Родословная копиями Тобольского архива подтверждена где-то с 1732г. Есть еще более ранняя информация, она в Москве.

My ancestors on a fatherly line have come to Siberia at once after a gain of its Ermak. Most likely from the Perm edge, as all then. And settling of the Perm edge seems occurred from Ustyug. Have located near Tobolsk in village Novoselova. The family tree is confirmed by copies of the Tobolsk archive somewhere with 1732г. There is earlier information, it in Moscow.